Wednesday, June 5, 2013

What the Future Holds

What does the future hold for the Apostolic Assembly?  No need to rehash what happened the last few months but basically Pastor Sam Valverde is no longer the Bishop President of the Apostolic Assembly. This has become yet another blow and scandal that the AA has faced in less than 10 years and it will be interesting to see how the leadership of the Assembly and its membership handles yet another scandal.  The church has always survived and the church will continue to survive but I believe God is pruning the AA from certain entities and aspects that are hindering the church in fulfilling the Great Commission and that God wants the AA to not simply survive but to thrive. Please post your comments, be respectful and do not post excessively.  The goal is to have good discussion, constructive criticism and share ideas. God Bless You.

634 comments:

  1. Thank you for opening this blog! Now we can conversate without SAN ANTONTO clogging the blog. I soon as I verify my sources I will post ome info that is going on with the GB of the AA.

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  2. Good I hope to here some real news on this blog.Thanks for the new blog you started.

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  3. Thank you for doing this, the other account was killed by all the repetitive, infantile activity of a couple folks. Please moderate this one so that it does not replicate the other's end! God bless you, brother/sister!

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  4. Thank Goodness!!! We are free from San Antonio!! Ok? Alright? Amen?

    So, Valverde is selling his house now. The days of financial bendicion are Over. It sucks that if Fountain of Valverde forecloses, the bank will repo San Jose and Solana Beach as well. Wise decision Valverde. Bet you prayed over that decision.

    And why must the GB meet at luxury hotels to meet? Isnt that what the General HQ is for/

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  5. Good Morning,

    Thank you for this new opportunity of sharing information in a mature and respectful way. All my posts are researched before I post any comments. Is there any one on here that can post the General Boards email? I would like to send them some information myself.



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  6. Good morning everyone, please spread the word about this new blog. Its going to take a few days to catch but hopefully this will be a welcomed change.

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  7. God is pruning a church organization body for what I believe are the intentional wrongs committed by individuals, ignoring the needs in the congregation, ignoring the needy, ignoring the hungry, ignoring the homeless, ignoring the sick, ignoring those n prison, ignoring the widows, ignoring the pastor's widows, for example, when my father passed away (a pastor a former bishop and a former board member)the Bishop President and District Bishop arranged and sent the Sheriff to evict my mother from her home. When my father passed away, my mother received a huge love offering of $150.00, (I almost sent it back). This is just one example of many wrongs that have and no doubt continue to be committed against God's people.
    Pastor's being forced out of their church for not sending in their 'taxes' to the General Board,
    A well respected pastor was even told to retire and the GB already had the new pastor ready to take over, but this pastor refused to retire and left the building and is still pastoring to this day with a large congregation in a flourishing ministry. So you see, this is just a reason why over 250 pastors have left including church members that number into the thousands and why more continue leave.
    You rightly label this as 'pruning' but perhaps another label could be 'reaping what you sow'. I do give the current board credit for voicing some intent to apply resolutions but in all reality, words alone do not mean anything more to the general membership.
    To conclude, you are correct the church will always prevail but this is referring to an organizations made by man for the right reasons and right purpose but over time has changed from something grand to an organization that is managed by greed, retaliation, anger and using others for their own benefit (just to identify a few). Ezekiel 34: 1-10).
    Dear Blog Master, I am attempting to remain within the confines of being respectful but this message is somewhat difficult to deliver without appearing that I am breaking the 'rules'.
    To conclude, I was a reader of the Apostolic News and preferred to stay away due to the failure of proper monitoring, so thank you for this blog, it's refreshing to share mindful and critical topics with others.

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    1. Dear Mr. Ramirez your words are not disrespectful and they are not breaking the rules. Words, tesitmonies and experiences like yours are what needs to be said so that people may see the truth of how the AA has hurt so many people. Maybe I should have worded my introduction a bit different. Thank you for taking the time to post. May Gods will be done.

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  8. Word here in Glendale Arizona is that Pastor Rojas is a little scared because he was called in a third time to the general offices to be told of a possible lawsuit coming down because of the hacked emails. Pastor Rojas was informed by the president that his name might appear in the lawsuit, so now he is really consecrating himself along with his church! lol.
    It's amazing to me how the consecration doesn't happen while they are committing illegal actions. But as soon as they are busted, they even generate a website and get all spiritual on us. Feel so sorry for the folks at Fountain of Truth that are so blind and don't even have a clue of what kind of a man they are following. Let's continue to pray for them.

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  9. So true thst the followers of s. valverde are blind. I have family there at fontana church and they are still so into their 'pastor'. Sad situation!

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  10. "Thus says the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusts in man, and makes flesh his arm, and whose heart departs from the LORD." Jeremiah 17:5

    It is understandable that men and women honor those put over them as shepherds. They are doing it in obedience to the Head Shepherd. Our Lord Jesus will bless their obedience and humility. It is these shepherds that have abandoned their calling for lucre, for gain, that will be called to answer and humbled before the people. But Jeremiah 17:5 is referring to those that, although they see that men abandon the path, they still idolize them and blindly follow them! All of us are called to be Bereans, (Acts 17:11), and we need to verify EVERYTHING in God's Word to make sure these teachers and leaders are not the ones prophesied about, that would come and make merchandise of the believers. (2 Peter 2:3)

    Yes, we need to pray for them, because they also bear that Glorious Name that was called upon us all in baptism! And therefore, they are part of the Body of Christ! And this is what our King taught us, "Pray for your enemies, pray for those that spitefully use you." And also, "Forgive us our sins, as we forgive those who sin against us." Please brethren, don't fall prey to an unforgiving spirit! Yes, they were brutal in the way they treated their brothers and sisters and took advantage of their humble spirit! Let He who is the ONLY Judge, be the one to mete out Justice! Don't let the root of bitterness consume you and destroy you!

    God bless you all brothers and sisters!

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  11. It's amazing when we look in the scripture:

    Ananias and Sapphira - Theft and Dishonesty = Judgement of Death
    Achan - Theft and Dishonesty = Judgement of Death for him and his complete family line
    David - Adultery and Murder - Forgiven
    Samson - Adultery - Forgiven and granted the strength to kill more enemies in one day than his whole life time.

    Get the picture - We are quick to 'pounce' on people that fall in immorality and yet we turn a 'blind-eye' to those that are taking advantage and mistreating God's people. Ezekiel 34: 1-10.
    Don't misunderstand, I would never want something bad to happen to those that are and have committed wrongs, God's forgiveness is for all but this is not a case of someone falling into sin, this is a case of someone 'purposely' falling into a sin of wrong doing. God has already spoken about how He feels about these types of Shepherds. You can name many: misuse of authority, actions that are illegal, eating from the good of finances given by God's people and yet driving them away to be destroyed by the 'wild- beasts' in the field (the World)

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  12. Dear Blog Master, I pray this message will remain, unlike the one I posted yesterday.

    What we are seeing is simply what God's Word warned us about. Laodicea is alive and thriving, sad to say. Here is a message to ponder, may it bring conviction to those that have become "professional" preachers, in a business called "the church". All you have to do is read the new Apostolic Assembly website and it reads like a corporation's website. "Competencies"? Really? Hossanah (God Save Us)!

    MESSAGE TO THE BRIDE OF CHRIST

    "But thank God! He has made us HIS CAPTIVES and continues to lead us along in Christ’s triumphal procession. Now he uses us TO SPREAD THE KNOWLEDGE OF CHRIST EVERYWHERE, like a SWEET PERFUME. Our lives are a CHRIST-LIKE FRAGRANCE rising up to God. But this FRAGRANCE is perceived differently by those who are being saved and by those who are perishing. To those who are PERISHING, we are a DREADFUL SMELL OF DEATH AND DOOM. But to those who are BEING SAVED, we are a LIFE-GIVING PERFUME. And who is adequate for such a task as this? You see, we are not like THE MANY HUCKSTERS WHO PREACH FOR PERSONAL PROFIT. We preach the word of God with sincerity and with Christ’s authority, knowing that God IS WATCHING US." 2 Corinthians 2:14-17 (NLT)

    "So when we preach that Christ was crucified, the Jews are offended and the Gentiles say it’s all nonsense. But to those called by God to SALVATION, both Jews and Gentiles, Christ is the POWER of God and the WISDOM of God." 1 Corinthians 1:23-24 (NLT)

    Beloved, the life-giving message of the ONLY TRUE GOD becoming our SALVATION, by the shedding of His Blood on Calvary, is foolishness to those that perish! But to those that are called to ETERNAL LIFE, it is the POWER and WISDOM of Almighty God! This message is to be FREELY PROCLAIMED to the world, by HIS BRIDE! Awaken Oh Bride! Maranatha!

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  13. Lo que estamos viendo no es más que lo que la Palabra de Dios nos advirtió. Laodicea está viva y pujante, es triste decirlo. Este es un mensaje para reflexionar, que puede traer convicción a los que se han convertido en predicadores "profesionales", en un negocio llamado "la iglesia". Todo lo que tienen que hacer es leer el nuevo sitio web de la Asamblea Apostólica y se lee como el sitio web de una empresa. ¿"Competencias"? ¿En serio? ¡Hossanah! (¡Dios Salvanos!)

    MENSAJE A LA NOVIA DE CRISTO

    "Pero gracias a Dios, que en Cristo SIEMPRE NOS LLEVA EN TRIUNFO, y que por medio de nosotros manifiesta la FRAGANCIA DE SU CONOCIMIENTO en todo lugar. Porque FRAGANTE AROMA DE CRISTO somos para Dios entre LOS QUE SE SALVAN y entre los que SE PIERDEN. Para unos, OLOR DE MUERTE PARA MUERTE, y para otros, OLOR DE VIDA PARA VIDA. Y para estas cosas ¿quién está capacitado? Pues no somos como muchos, que COMERCIAN la Palabra de Dios, sino que con sinceridad, como de parte de Dios, hablamos en Cristo DELANTE DE DIOS." 2 Corintios 2:14-17

    "pero nosotros predicamos a Cristo crucificado, piedra de tropiezo para los Judíos, y NECEDAD para los Gentiles. Sin embargo, PARA LOS LLAMADOS, tanto Judíos como Griegos, Cristo es PODER de Dios y SABIDURÍA de Dios." 1 Corintios 1:23-24

    Amados, el mensaje vivificador del ÚNICO DIOS VERDADERO viniendo a Ser nuestra SALVACIÓN, por el derramamiento de SU SANGRE en el Calvario, ¡es locura a los que se pierden! Pero para aquellos que son llamados a LA VIDA ETERNA, ¡es el PODER y la SABIDURÍA de Dios Todopoderoso! ¡Este mensaje debe ser GRATUITAMENTE PROCLAMADO al mundo, por SU NOVIA! ¡Despierta Oh Novia! ¡Maranatha!

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  14. Bro. Nathaniel Ramirez & Br. Maldonado - Finally someone who is alive is about the Father's business. Behold the fields are white and ready for harvest.

    Others who divert time and energy to gossip and judgement but that is not our job. You see Revelation 12 tells me that job is already filled. To continue to bring forth death it will only produce death. But now is the time for life!

    Think of this - would what is posted here help an unbeliever come to Christ or will it drive him further away? Can a fountain bring forth both bitter and sweet water?

    What is done is done. May the powers that be handle and judge those. Besides the real power and judgement belongs to Him that sits on the throne.

    I have attached a link that may really make some things clear for those who do not understand what Nathaniel was saying.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwUiexuPE6w

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    1. Excellent video!! I just posted on my facebook page. By the standards of man most of the people we read in scripture would not have been chosen.

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  15. Thank you Brother John, very amusing! Yes, the sooner we learn to yield to HIS SPIRIT, the sooner we can become vessels that bring HONOR to Him! Gotta put the "me" down! Then HE can show forth in our lives!

    God bless you brothers!

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  16. I KNOW A LOT OF PEOPLE like to say let GOD handle the wrong doings going on at the headquarters,but the example from the scripture is given by Paul when he said he with stood Peter to his face when he was doing wrong.The board is trying to sweep this under the rug and they are wrong for not standing UP TO s.v.IN THE BEGINNING.

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    1. Your so right. A crime has been commited, and Fortino doesnt have the backbone to go up against the board members and do the right thing.
      Just sweep it all under the carpet.
      Who is guilty here? Just Sammy? Nope! the whole board, and they should all be removed.

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  17. In order to take the right path to begin the process of saving a great church organization and because of the reputation the GB has created for themselves since the Daniel Sanchez administration the following is highly recommended:
    1. Convene a gathering of all pastors and ministry
    2. All General Board members must resign
    3. Request a representation of other organizations to sit as an Oversight Committee to act in the capacity of review to ensure proper compliance of constitution articles related to voting.
    4. Oversight committee to conduct review of voting, gathering of ballots, submitting nominees, counting of votes and confirmation elected officer.

    The above recommendation would be the first phase, second phase would include a complete review and appropriate changes to the constitution that would design a model giving more autonomy to the local church and pastor.

    The mistrust and exodus of the pastors and general membership will continue unless a drastic move is not implemented.

    When I or others look over the 'horizon' of leaders, we ask ourselves, "Where are those men and women that would stand up for what was right" and sadly there is silence. I do give credit to those initially spoke up in defense of what was right but sadly those voices were soon silenced by visits made to them of GB leadership or excommunication from the fellowship.

    Is there a Moses among them, is there a David among them, is there a Joshua among them?

    To the GB members, Bishops and Pastors you have the ability to make the necessary changes towards advancing this church organization into next phase of growth, but the question remains, are you willing to do what it takes?

    There are many in prayer for those in leadership to take the right steps for resolution and peace in this Church Organization body.

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  18. The economy has not yet recovered, 10,000.00 a month salary plus benefits not counting all the monies for "guest speaking", "pastor salary" is too good to give up. The GB isn't going to let go of that nice meaty bone. It is just a shame for all those good hearted, honest, hermanos who make tamales and sell them for a living thinking they are really helping the mission field. Only to find out that this money goes to feed all those greed driven corrupted men.

    GB.. needs to be audited....unless someone goes to prison it isnt going to change. All GB cover each others Greed.

    "Corrupt Priests

    2 “And now, O priests, this commandment is for you.
    2 If you will not hear,
    And if you will not take it to heart,
    To give glory to My name,”
    Says the Lord of hosts,
    “I will send a curse upon you,
    And I will curse your blessings.
    Yes, I have cursed them already,
    Because you do not take it to heart.

    3 “Behold, I will rebuke your descendants
    And spread refuse on your faces,
    The refuse of your solemn feasts;
    And one will take you away with it.
    4 Then you shall know that I have sent this commandment to you,
    That My covenant with Levi may continue,”
    Says the Lord of hosts.
    5 “My covenant was with him, one of life and peace,
    And I gave them to him that he might fear Me;
    So he feared Me
    And was reverent before My name.
    6 The law of truth[a] was in his mouth,
    And injustice was not found on his lips.
    He walked with Me in peace and equity,
    And turned many away from iniquity.

    7 “For the lips of a priest should keep knowledge,
    And people should seek the law from his mouth;
    For he is the messenger of the Lord of hosts.
    8 But you have departed from the way;
    You have caused many to stumble at the law.
    You have corrupted the covenant of Levi,”
    Says the Lord of hosts.
    9 “Therefore I also have made you contemptible and base
    Before all the people,
    Because you have not kept My ways
    But have shown partiality in the law.”


    GB has strayed from the truth and great Commision....

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  19. Nathaniel - Very good points.
    From a business perspective terms like negligence, derelict of duties, fiduciary responsibility all come to mind.

    I wonder if the members of the GB are familiar with the concept of directors and officers responsibility?

    I sell D&O insurance to protect individuals and corporations. (Personal liability insurance that provides general cover to a firm's directors and senior executives. Paid usually by the firm, it reimburses (in part or in full) the costs resulting from law suits and judgments arising out of poor management decisions, employee dismissals, shareholder grievances, and other such acts committed in good faith. Criminal offenses are not covered under this insurance.)

    I wonder if they have this coverage and if members of the AA can recover for this loss.

    Basically what I am saying is that the Executives, Directors and officers have a responsibility to their constituents to protect the interest of the corporation. If you are aware of a wrong and do nothing then you can be considered an accessory. Remedies can either be legal in nature or handled in a civil court. In either way a liability has been created.

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    1. Do you think that bunch of clowns would have those kind of things in the organization? Remember the board a bunch of uneducated greedy Hispanics that want to that will step on anybody's toe to make it to the top. I spent the first 48 years of my life in the a.a. Had enough of the hypocrisy and left with NO DESIRE to return at all. To me instead of making suggestions to better and save the a.a. people, just leave. There are many churches outside the a.a. that are so much better.

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    2. I heard a few years ago that the liability coverage for the Assembly had been cancelled due to the number of lawsuits.

      Not sure if they found another company to provide insurance.

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  20. OH my goodness - First let me start with this, I agree with you about leaving, secondly, even though a handful of people have tarnished what could have been and perhaps still be a great church organization does not mean that all of them are the same. I could tell you stories about Sis. Cadena a 99 year old saint of God, or Pastor Gonzales, a fine example of a gentleman with a great heart, you see my brother there are many that have labored with all their heart just to advance the church, they didn't stay in ministry to get ahead off the hard work of people, they just worked hard and labored but unfortunately what has been bred are men that do not have the same heart and commitment to God, they instead fall under Ezekiel 34: 1-10, God had already made His decision of what He thinks about man that mistreats His people.
    I believe the AA is at a juncture in the road that if they do not make some drastic changes then we shall all see the demise of something that could have been saved if it not for greed, selfishness, retaliation, fear and yes, even 'blackmail'.
    Brother, you have moved on and that is good for you, in fact I have also moved on which was the best things I could have done and regret that I didn't do it any sooner. Some may ask, "then if you are not in the AA then why are you taking time to write?" my answer to that is the AA has and will always be part of my life no matter what my future holds and it saddens me that the wrongs have been allowed to continue because a wrong produces a wrong then produces another wrong and it never ends and this perhaps will destroy this great organization, which is the reason why over 250 pastors have left along with thousands of general membership.
    I recall a prophet that went to a king and asked him what he would do in a certain situation, the king responded and the prophet then said, "then apply what you said to yourself because it was you who committed the act", no one gets away with doing wrong to others, they will pay for it in this lifetime or before the Throne of God.
    Even though the AA has offered membership growth to many organized groups or independent fellowships because of these scandals we must diligently pray for those that may be hurt and potentially leave the church all together, those are the people that I am concerned about, let's pray for them, let's reach out to them, let's find them and bring them back.
    There are many great ministries that exist and continue to be formed from the exodus of the AA, You'll find these fellowships in your city, You'll find Pastor Manuel Mendoza in San Jose, Ca or Pastor Peter Meza in Rancho Cucmamonga, Ca, or Pastor Casas in San Jose, Ca, or Pastor Mike Mendoza in Turlock Ca, Pastor Hernandez in Peoria, Arizona, or Pastor Art Tafoya in Arizona, Pastor Saul Avila in Austin, Texas, Pastor Saul Montes in Houston Texas, Pastor Daniel Solomon in Denver, Colorado, Pastor Ramon Leal in Stockton, Ca and if you in the Manteca, California area then come join us as we plant a new ministry in that area, in other words find what works for you and then do what you can to invest into the advancement of the Gospel of Christ.

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    1. Great brother Nathaniel! Yes we need to, pray for all the sheep because if this is not resolved in a Godly manner, many will be further led astray, discouraged and harmed spiritually. There are many "daughters of the Great Whore" out there that are deceitfully "spiritual", they appear to be part of our Lord's Bride, yet they are set traps, ready to capture fleeing brothers and sisters who are too young spiritually to see the danger! And the sad part is that these assemblies don't know themselves that they are following the wrong spirit! Now that Pope Francis is calling all the daughters home, as well as other religions and even atheists, it is very possible that some of our brothers and sisters may get caught in that dragnet! All of their heads WILL BE ON THE CURRENT LEADERSHIP of the AA! Yeshua our Father bless you my brother!

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    2. Great words Nathaniel! Also the a.a. of the past, from my early years will always be in my heart. And those years included your father as my pastor. I have my father who was an ordained minister and pastor, my mother who was a faithful partner in his ministry, uncles of old who pastored churches, cousins who ministered outside the U.S. and in also.
      I am sure all of these would turn in their graves if they could at what is going on now. Shame on these leaders of today! They cannot even defend the members who are working faithfully for the kingdom of God.
      I am sure the stench of greed from these men (the present a.a. officials) has reached to the presence of God.

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  22. One more comment - I remember when we were told of a visit of a Pastor or Bishop and the church was very excited, here is a sample:
    Pastor Pedro Hermosillo
    Pastor Jose Ortega
    Bishop Benjamin Cantu
    Bishop Robert Ramirez
    Bishop Lorenzo Salazar
    Bishop Leonardo Sepulveda
    Bishop Thomas Ramirez
    Bishop Francisco Meza
    Bishop Issac Cota
    How about Sis, Maria Fraijo?
    Bishop Antonio Nava
    Biship Manuel Gaxiola
    Bishop Rudy Rodriguez


    Remember those names? these were people that were sold out for God and did not expect any gain in return, these people of God made a difference and a lasting impact in the lives of countless of people they also were not intimidated to speak up for what was right not compared to what you see today. Compare it now, not much excitement when you hear the names of today, very, very sad.

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  23. Excuse me if my questions or observations seem mundane or elementary.

    Why is the History of this organization romanticized and it would seem to me that some put it in almost a "Holy" state? Is this not an organization formed by imperfect men? Is this not just a vehicle that was used to carry the gospel?

    If I understand this correctly, the organization is not part of the message. It was just a tool. Yet as I read these blogs it almost appears as if some are worshiping the organization. Dare I say almost like "idol' status. Could it be that there are some that are in the organization but not in Christ?

    I mean when I read these blogs it is as I am reading 1 Corinthians 3:4 When one of you says, "I am a follower of Paul," and another says, "I follow Apollos," aren't you acting just like people of the world? Apollos"; another, "I follow Cephas"; still another, "I follow Christ."

    But as I understand this the church is you and I it is not the organization. So long as you and I continue to abide in Him we will continue to live.

    So here is a question, "What if we started to promote and focus just on Christ alone?" I am just asking would it not look differently?

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    1. A BIG AMEN TO THAT JOHN RODRIGUEZ!

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    2. Amen brother John! Our Savior GOD is the HEART and Spirit of the Church, no one else!

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  24. Finally rid of that idiot!! Thank you!!

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  25. These news actually came out of the AA general board - The AA president Bishop Fortino has been given notice of a possible lawsuit coming to them because of the email hacking. This very reliable source, which shall remain nameless, confirms that board members have been notified of said lawsuit, and are scrambling to maintain it under raps because they don't want the membership to know what is going on.
    My source says that Fortino has also been covering for Valverde because of further threats of exposure amongst the general board members.
    Continue to support this sinking ship what have you got to lose? The Apostolic Assembly has become the laughing stock in pentecostal/apostolic circles. Word is that any one who belongs to this organization is ignorant and uneducated (quote from UPC circles).
    All board members, including headquarter staff have been mentioned in the lawsuit. God have mercy on this organization because its days are numbered!!!

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    1. "Word is that any one who belongs to this organization is ignorant and uneducated (quote from UPC circles)."

      This is actually a good thing, when spiritually discerned!

      "Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were UNLEARNED AND IGNORANT MEN, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus." Acts 4:13

      Makes you wonder where the source of this "UPC" quote stands with the Master! It is precisely this mindset that is leading the unstable believers to the Great Whore that will be jubilant in the Tribulation, right before its demise! All who gravitate toward her think highly OF THEMSELVES! I for one, am NOTHING but a lump of clay in HIS HANDS, whether I stand or fall, is entirely IN HIS HANDS!

      Be careful brothers and sisters that you do not get infected with this judgmental spirit! Let God be God, step out of the way! As you can see, HE is moving!

      Maranatha!

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  26. Can someone please post the General Boards email List.

    thanks

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    1. You can find the emails on the website unless the new website has excluded the emails.

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  29. Curious - Why are comments being deleted?

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  30. Not sure why comments are being deleted. I was trying to work through the spam mail and approve any comments that hadnt been posted. I guess he decided to delete them. Thanks

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  31. Good question, I had a couple postings deleted and no explanation!

    (???)

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  32. Thanks for the response King James!

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  33. As we see all the AA events unfolding one cannot wonder. That lawsuit for elections done shady. Makes one wonder about that these days.
    All I know is that God sees all and it's His business that was misrepresented. May God have mercy.

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  34. Misseplled words, by accdient :)

    As the kids say today, "My Bad"

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  35. Oh NO.... Just found out that FTC is going to get some real bad news soon...... Looks like they will be getting a taste of thier own medicine. There is no telling how bad or how far the damage will be done. I know for a fact that Sam Valverde checks this and the other blog daily for any information that might leak out from his team of deceit. What you sow is what you reap. Sam Valverde that 1.3 million you are asking for your house, try not to spend it yet, it might come in handy soon.



    Mathew 7:2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.

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  36. Here is a question - (Pardon me I know I am a late "arrival" to these blogs so perhaps there are things i do not understand)
    Who is "Santone"? Not that it matters. But, does any one have any idea what happened to him? Not to be mean, but he seems to have gone off the deep end of the pool without knowing how to swim. As they say the "elevator does not seem to reach the top floors."

    The other possibility is that his blog has been compromised or hijacked. Any other theories. Just curious......

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  37. @apostolicowboy:Are you saying that the locksmith and the other guys are going to Fontana?The ones that paid a visit to Bro. Baldermar.

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  38. After some thought, it didn't take me long to determine the 'root cause' of all that has transpired, yes, I agree that what Sam Valverde did was and is wrong? yes I agree that Daniel Sanchez did much harm? yes I agree that certain individuals created their personal little kingdoms, yes I agree that leaders misused their authority and now it comes to this, the potential demise of a church organization was largely due to the 'root-cause' which is...they were allowed to do so, no one tried to stop them, no one dared speak up and those that did were quickly threatened and stopped, but I point out once again a comment that I wrote many months ago, if all would stand up together against these wrongs then there was a good chance this could have all been avoided, but instead pastors and bishops cowered down, fearful of losing their income, fearful of losing their churches, fearful that their sons would not be able to follow them and take over the church so instead of raising their voices in alarm they meekly gave in to the threats of a few.
    It pains me to offer the following analysis; but it's much like the Ayatollahs in the Arab countries and I am amazed how one or a few men can harshly rule a nation.
    So in a way I don't totally blame Sam Valverde, Daniel Sanchez, Juan Fortino, Abel Aguilar, Art Espinoza and the rest because at the end of the day they got away with what they were permitted and allowed to do which falls on the laps of the general membership and leaders of the AA. I was even more disturbed about a great man of God that was removed because he was told he was too old, forced to resign but, that is not where the story ends, this pastor refused to resign and told the 'inquisition committee' that he was called to pastor, got up went to find another building and continues to pastor to this day. This is just one story of hundreds that could be told.
    So I encourage you to step out and find someplace where your ministry and talents will be welcomed and appreciated. The AA, which has accurately been described, is only a tool and not the message. One final observation, in a crime or wrongdoing it is a well known fact that accomplices have also been held liable, so when you look at it in that perspective, I end with a question, could those that refused to speak up and allow these men to wrongfully operate in their leadership roles be labeled as 'accomplices? Just my thoughts for today.

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  39. Many are not playing the role as "accomplices or just being passive." As for me and my family we chose to seek God instead and trust that in time He would stop it. As of today, I can say that He has. For the past two years, Pastor's son Tim looked like he was being groomed to soon take over pastorship or become a Co Pastor. I know of a group that were praying and as of today this is not so. Many flaws I witnessed within the leadership were told to God and He is dealing with them all. I never wished this outcome to them or anyone, but God saw it all. Now we pray for them that soon they come clean and repent.
    We were taught it wrong to challenge our Spiritual Authority according to scripture. I believe somewhere the fear of God was lost. These men forgot who they were working for and who's they were dealing with. If Christ Himself died for His did they think they could get away with mistreating or mishandling Gods children.
    I know that for other GB members to be passive with Pastor Valverde's is due to the fact that they too are partakers of the same acts. If he made too much money, they too made too much money. If they went against him they too would have to stop. They are all corruptly mishandling their positions and controlling situations abusing their authority too. I know this to be true. They have fat bank account demanding tithes they done even tithe themselves.
    At first my family and I were defending of our Pastor. Because we were left in the dark at our own church we began to look into this scandal ourselves. Unfortunately we found most to be true from reliable sources. I almost wish I had not for what we learned. But the Word of God instructs us to try the spirit and see if it be of God. Christ gave the permission of knowing each other by our fruit. Today my family and I are asking God where do we go now? Is He going to place someone there with a heart of God and His Kingdom, not with a hidden self supporting agenda?
    I know that our new building was not Gods will, for that reason we have always been after money. Since those doors opened on day one we questioned. Nothing flourished there. No matter how hard we as a congregation tried. There were so many times the Core would try to start over the flow of doings, nothing worked. God cannot bless mess. Too much manipulation was done to fund that building, force fit by man and not God. Gods will is always without sorrow.
    Our Pastor and his family have always been about wanting more, having more, looking to be more, esteeming themselves rather than the ministry of God, using their personal feelings effecting the Kingdom of God. I say a spirit of GREED, selfishness, position, and control is what trickled down from them to their leaders and to the congregation. If you don't agree with his family, your out and regardless of your spiritual gift you cannot be used there. So today it's like a family secret there. You know something is wrong and who did what, but don't dare mention it. Some serve Pastor and will be with him no matter what was done and if he is repented or not. Some serve God and will trust God is allowing this for a reason and will continue attending until God shows them otherwise. As for me and my house we will serve The Lord!

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    1. TO FTC - I will be praying for you. I agree with your words. God Bless you and your family.

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  40. FTC MEMBER/Others

    Those are powerful words and great insight if you truly are a member of FTC church. Something that I have been pondering about and I would like for others to chip in is this: How do we challenge authority, especially spiritual authority/leaders without violating God's word? There are some interesting passages that we can consider but for the sake of not being too long I will omit them for now. Hopefully you will take time to respond. Thanks

    God Bless

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    1. Here are my 2 cents concerning your question. What better example than the man who was after God's own heart. We read in 1 Samuel 24, that David had the opportunity to take out the one that was trying to harm him. Yet the Word says, "5But then David’s conscience began bothering him because he had cut Saul’s robe. 6'The LORD knows I shouldn’t have done that to my lord the king,' he said to his men. 'The LORD forbid that I should do this to my lord the king and attack the LORD’s anointed one, for the LORD himself has chosen him.'" Further on we read, "11Look, my father, at what I have in my hand. It is a piece of the hem of your robe! I cut it off, but I didn’t kill you. This proves that I am not trying to harm you and that I have not sinned against you, even though you have been hunting for me to kill me. 12May the LORD judge between us. Perhaps the LORD will punish you for what you are trying to do to me, but I will never harm you.'" Continuing in this chapter, we see the result of David's actions, "15'May the LORD therefore judge which of us is right and punish the guilty one. HE IS MY ADVOCATE, and he will rescue me from your power!' 16When David had finished speaking, Saul called back, 'Is that really you, my son David?' Then he began to cry. 17And he said to David, 'YOU ARE A BETTER MAN THAN I AM, for you have repaid me good for evil.'" What did David do? He recognized his place and the place of God's anointed, even though Saul was evil, David recognized that nevertheless God had anointed him king. DAVID ACTED, AFTER GOD'S OWN HEART! In 1 Samuel 26 we see how Saul was put into David's hand once again, yet this is what took place, "8'God has surely handed your enemy over to you this time!' Abishai whispered to David. 'Let me pin him to the ground with one thrust of the spear; I won’t need to strike twice!' 9'No!' David said. 'Don’t kill him. For WHO CAN REMAIN INNOCENT after attacking the LORD’s anointed one? 10Surely THE LORD WILL STRIKE SAUL DOWN SOMEDAY, or he will die of old age or in battle. 11The LORD forbid that I should kill the one he has anointed! But take his spear and that jug of water beside his head, and then let’s get out of here!'" So the lesson here is that God has all things in control and watches how WE RESPOND! Will we react as our Lord Jesus? Because after all, if HE lives in us, the answer should be YES. Or will we react in the flesh? Whatever the reaction, it should be a sign for us to see where we STAND with God.

      Now the second example we have is Paul, when he stood up to Peter in Galatians 2. This example applies to those who are leaders, (Pastors/Bishops), rebuking someone in leadership. Paul stood up for TRUTH and Peter accepted the rebuke as a TRUE BELIEVER! We see him supporting Paul at the Jerusalem Council later. So, as long as things are done in the spirit of LOVE, decency and order, GOD's WILL will prevail!

      I hope this helps us, because this applies throughout the Body of Christ, not just the AA.

      God bless you!

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  41. FTC - God be with you. I have one recommendation for you. Give some consideration to stepping away from where you are. As you do, continue to fast and pray. As you step away it will allow for some healing to begin in you and in your family and it will allow you to gain some perspective a difficult situation. At the end of the period if this is where you are suppose be - then so be it. If not then it will allow for the separation to be easier.

    King James - Oh my what and invitation! I have been gone for over 25 years now from the AA but I have been involved in church government in other organizations. 1.) The current organizational structured is flawed. Actually the most succinct way I can put it is that it is completely "inverted". 2.) It is lacking checks and balances. 3.) It lacks independent accountability.

    Your question, " How do we challenge authority, especially spiritual authority/leaders without violating God's word?" Oh my, I see this so many times were people have been so "beat-up" or indoctrinated with that they are afraid to speak up. My question is how can one remain silent and not violate God's word? So many of these examples in the bible.

    BTW - Who was that individual that not only questioned man but he questioned God. Not once or twice but more than ten times! Was he cursed because of it? No, history says that he was blessed! I think the difference maker is not the question but it the state of the Heart.

    Through out history men have had to be questioned and spirits tested "and no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light." 2 Corinthians 11:14

    The question that I have is this, How much of the not "questioning" have to do with culture and how much has to do with indoctrination? What about fear? How does that factor in? I am just an outsider looking in........


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  42. What did David do ? The anointed of God fled From Gods anointed.Flee my Bro.

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    1. "The FEAR OF THE LORD is the instruction of wisdom; and before honor is HUMILITY." Proverbs 15:33

      Peace!

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  43. Curious to know if SanAntonio has tried to sneak into this blog?...

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  44. Its not easy to just pick up and go when that's all we know as a family. It involves many of us.
    We have gathered our family and have agreed to go specifically in mind, keeping our eyes and thoughts on Christ.Today was a good day for us.
    Your comments have helped. Thank you.

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  45. Word is that Sammy was looking into buying a jet to take him and his little hackers world wide.
    Good thing God knocked him out of his man made throne, otherwise all the flor azul money would have been a down payment on his own Lear Jet.
    Fortino should be removed for not having the backbone to stand up to Sammy and the rest of the thieves on the Board. Maybe he is just part of them too.
    We have to amke sure all the Valverde Blood line never holds any postion. Not even as Sunday School teachers. The Whole Valverde/Pacheco blood line is messed up.
    What a shame!

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  46. Looking back at my younger years in the a.a., being a p.k. my parents were very involved in the local church making sure the funds for construction,maintenance,projects were there. Fund raisers in that time involved much labor, labor of love for the work of God, countless hours making tamales, in the kitchen on Sundays, door to door selling baked goods, etc... Thank God the needs were met at the local church and the work was not in vain! My mother was a big part of this work practically up to her passing away.
    I believe there are still some churches that are still doing fund raising the 'old school' way, Lord Bless Them! but these funds are somewhat being directed in other directions, for example, outrages mortgage payments, supporting the lavish lifestyles of their pastors and his staff. Pastors of small congregations 'sponging' off the members, still able to physically work and support their families in the workforce, but NO they are 'dedicated to the work of the Lord.' What a LAME excuse!!!! My father pastored a small congregation for several years, he worked part-time at his job because he had a family to support. At one time the members demanded that accept a monthly salary from the church, he said no because the church was in the middle of a major construction project to have their own sanctuary. They still wanted him to take the money, he gave in, but what he did he secretly used that money for material for construction. He left this earth leaving me a personal example of not to store our treasures in this earthly life, but to store them up in heaven. He may have left this life poor, but in heaven he has his riches.

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  47. Jesus said,speaking about Himself,the foxes have their hole and the birds have their nest but the son of man has no where to lay his head. I want to be like Jesus. OUCH. The Lord must of never heard of the prosperity teachings.

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  48. "Oh Lord, won’t you buy me a Mercedes-Benz?"

    What do "prosperity teachings" and Janis Joplin have in common? Yes, Janis Joplin. (I did a sermon on this idea once and contrasted the two.)

    The following are excerpts with urls attached.

    These were idea's that were floating around 43 years ago.

    “Mercedes Benz” is a lonely blues tune about the illusory happiness promised (but rarely delivered) by the pursuit of worldly goods, a hippie-era rejection of the consumerist ideals that Joplin saw growing up as a self-described “middle-class white chick” in Port Arthur, Texas. She had come to California in the early ’60s and quickly earned a place as one of the leading musical lights in a generation that shared her utopian anti-materialism. When Joplin sang, in the second and third verses of “Mercedes Benz,” for “a color TV” and “a night on the town,” she knew all too well that neither would bring her peace. “It’s the want of something that gives you the blues,” she once said. “It’s not what isn’t, it’s what you wish was that makes unhappiness." http://performingsongwriter.com/janis-joplin-mercedes-benz/

    Take a listen to the song. What do you hear? It would be interesting to hear what your experience has been.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=i-4AheUl6ls#at=21

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  49. it has been said that over 200 pastors have left the apostolic assembly.. does anyone have names of some of those pastors?
    or are we just talking about the exodus that happened when the brothers placed their lawsuit?

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    1. The number actually is closer to 250. In Houston alone there are more independent Apostolic church that fellowship with AWA. That is just one city. The recent Valverde debacle caused almost 30 pastors to seek counsel with AWA with information about forming their own independent entity. A good way to gauge is if you remember the Anaheim Convention Center would fill to capacity and attendees sent away by the fire marshal now conventions are held in rooms that were used for banquets.

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  50. I am glad that there is a new blog where we can have only comments and not non sense redundancy.

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  51. It is so liberating to be free of the Assembly and all of its controliing and manipulative ways.

    I remember growing up going to conventions and being disgusted by how everyone was so arrogant because they were dressed up, and those who usually greeted you at sector services all of a sudden did not know you at convention.

    And the so called elite inner circle people, PK's etc with the right last names walking around like they were better than everyone else.

    Corrupt leaders, arrogance, pride and elitism..... No thank you I do not miss that.

    What I do miss is the powerful spirit filled services that were held amongst the real humble workers for The Lord and not the so called elite.

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    1. Counselor, may I ask where you congregate now?
      Here is a thought provoking video, just copy and paste in your browser and replace the word "DOT" with a .

      https://www"DOT"youtube"DOT"com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=BAXxlcJ6B2E

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  52. Oh by the way, to all that have left the AA, I pray that you did not choose to fall into a trinitarian congregation! Going back on the command; "Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you." 2 Corinthians 6:17

    Someone from Calvary Chapel told me that he had debated about trinity with an Apostolic, that has now "seen' the trinity and congregates with him. The video I suggested is put out by a trinitarian group, I suggest it because of the truth concerning Discipling, not because of the trinity. The word also tells us, "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." 1 Thess. 5:21

    God bless you all!

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  53. I am currently attending an independant apostolic church that is affiliated with the AWA.

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  54. Thanks for your reply Counselor! God bless you!

    Here is another great video from the Fuel Project. We need to get back to the Master's Plan, away from man's "own little kingdom" plan.

    https://www"DOT"youtube"DOT"com/watch?v=DmADy1DTmC8&feature=endscreen

    Replace "DOT" with .

    Our Lord Yeshua bless you!

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  55. Counselor - A BIG FAT Amen to your post!! In retrospect it would almost be humorous if it was not so sad.

    Br. Maldonado your question, “Counselor, may I ask where you congregate now?” and your next post where you state, “I pray that you did not choose to fall into a trinitarian congregation!” ; are quite curious in light of the link that you provided.

    Is Oness vs. The Trinity a big debate? Oh yes it is. Can we have some “knock-down” drag out type of discussion on this? Yes! Both positions would feel like they “won” and that they really told “them”. Now I ask this question – “Is this what we were called to do?” But sides feel like they have the truth and they have packed their “pop” guns with scripture that would validate their position. But here is an observation – “Can you have the truth and not be the truth?”
    “because he was not one of us.”
    Given the "US" vs "Them" mentality – How do we deal with the rebuke of intolerance from Jesus himself in Mark 9:38-50. The strong delivery of verse 42 would indicate this is something that Christ was passionate about.
    To make clear where I came from, I am baptized in Jesus name and have been filled with the Holy Ghost. Now to where I am. I believe that God has called me to come out of the ‘salt shaker’ and into places that I never in my wildest dreams would have believed that he would have me. At first I was uncomfortable and unsettled but time and time again He has provided confirmation that I am where I am supposed to be. I have been criticized by many and “ostracized” by many more. In the beginning I would doubt but as I sat down with an “old oness” Pentecostal preacher one day he encouraged me to remain strong and gave this verse in Matthew 9: “10 While Jesus was having dinner at Matthew’s house, many tax collectors and sinners came and ate with him and his disciples. 11 When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?” 12 On hearing this, Jesus said, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 13 But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’[a] For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”
    Is this what we were called to do?”
    While we remain in our “incubators” isolated from reality and argue and dispute these matters there is a world that is dying without a Savior. In your Churches better that 80% plus of your young people are leaving your church. Your Pastors are looking to build bigger church and filling them with transfers from smaller churches and smaller churches are dying. We see some baptisms but the attrition rate is about the same so growth is slow. You see in my humble opinion it one thing to have “Truth” but it is an entirely different calling to be “Truth”. This world needs Truth – the Truth of the gospel.

    Now, what if we were to turn our current church model upside down? What if we did church like the early church? What if we raised or children in Christ instead of the church? The most important question is what if we went back to preaching the pure “Gospel” and let Christ alone do the work in people’s hearts. What of “and ye shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free.”

    This is what would cause Francis Chan into leaving a 2000+member church in one of the wealthiest cities in America and go in to the “Tenderloin” in San Francisco and start a new church. This is why he has spent days going up and down stairs to all of the apartments within a 10 block radius. What would cause these men to church plant in Detroit? What is the driving force to planting on average one church plant per week here in America for the last few years? This is an example of being truth.

    So yes brother Maldonado I agree with you 100% when you say, “We need to get back to the Master's Plan, away from man's "own little kingdom" plan.”

    Like I said before I am just an outsider looking in…….

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  56. Interesting how we bash on all the trinitarians yet we sing their songs, read their books, listen to their sermons and even attend their theological schools.

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  57. A BIG AMEN TO THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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  58. Praise the Lord brother John Rodriguez! What you just described is precisely why I placed the links to those videos. When TRUTH lives in you, you immediately recognize His Voice, when faced with truth! The premise of those videos is that we are really following the wrong path, not the one that our Master traced for us. We are following a path that was really man-made, rather than God ordained. The first two videos in that series of the Restless Church describe precisely why some who have been in The Way for years are still going over fundamental teachings week in and week out. This relates perfectly into what is happening with the AA leadership scandals. Spiritual Immaturity in the leadership fosters precisely the type of activities we are discovering through blogs like this. We are all instructed to be witnesses for our Savior God and give the Good News to all we meet. Then meet together to worship and receive nourishment for the equipping of the Body, so we can then go back out and fish for the lost. That is NOT what is taking place in a lot of congregations, it has become a place where we go to be entertained and where milk is always served by professional baby-sitters.

    Concerning the oneness vs trinitarian, this is where our Lord Himself decides whom HE CALLS and WHEN. It does not take very long to see, if one is honest and does their own research without bias, that only three groups believe in the truth of Deuteronomy 6:4. Judaism, true Christianity and Muslims. Muslims believe in the antithesis of the TRUE GOD, so that only leaves Judaism and true Christianity. All other religions have some form of triad, tri-unity or trinity in their deities, so the pagan root of this doctrine is obvious to a true seeker. We are exhorted to contend for the faith once and for all delivered to the saints. HOW WE DO IT, will reveal whether HE LIVES IN US or NOT. Everything has to be done in - love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, etc.

    @ King James, "bashing" trinitarians is done by immature persons! Trinitarians truly believe that they are worshipping the Jesus that was crucified, was buried and resurrected. So we should not be "bashing" them, what we need to do is expose the true origin of the false doctrine, employing the fruit of the Spirit and His Word. The same applies to anyone from any other religion. I was a catholic for most of my life and defended the trinity doctrine in ignorance because I had never read the Bible! But you know what? It was that "defending" that got me into reading the Bible and discovering the One True God from the Bible! Now, using my life experience and my conversion to help others in the same circumstance I was in, to come to Jesus and declare what Thomas declared, "my Lord and my God!"

    His blessing to you all my brothers!

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  59. We as Apostolics in knowing and having been revealed the truth concerning The Godhead and Salvation, Must not fall into the horrible mentality that exists in many Oneness Pentecostal circles.

    The mentality of elitism and the holier than though attitude is rampant amongst our people.

    I am sure that this displeases God tremendously and we can not be compassionate when we walk around with our nose in the air while there are souls to be saved.

    And we go from conference to service and associate only with the elite apostolics such as ourselves and do not want anything to do with the heathens that we are supposed to be reaching.

    And if a visitor does come to one of our churches, instead of loving on them with the love of Christ. We want to change their appearance and have them look the part above all.

    We may have the truth, however we have so far to go in getting it right folks !

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    1. What is the truth? I am not being sarcastic.

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  60. Oh my goodness,

    I am assuming you are a believer ? If this is so then you should know what truth is.

    There are many who believe they are in truth and all are convinced that their path is the correct one.From Muslims to Zoroastrians to Taoists and Bfollowers of Budha.

    So follow what God has placed in your heart.

    In the end there is only one absolute truth and when this life ends we will know if we followed the true path.

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  61. Counselor, yes you are right about that attitude! Which again, only displays the spiritual immaturity rampant as a result of spiritually immature leadership and believers NOT RELYING on the Spirit to teach them. Instead being satisfied with whatever they hear from the pulpit without verifying themselves from the Scriptures, what was given to them!

    To Oh My Goodness, TRUTH is Jesus, He alone is the ABSOLUTE TRUTH! He is NOT a "second person" of a triad, HE IS THE ALPHA AND OMEGA, the One Who Was, Who Is and Who Is to come!

    May He bless you all!

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  62. Let's be careful not to begin debates about the scriptures, the Word of God speaks against this.

    Once upon a time I was an individual that couldn't wait to 'preach the truth' to anyone but later on in my ministry I discovered by God's Word that it was not up to me to try to convince anyone but God left it to Himself to take care of the scripture states that He is the one that will reveal himself, He also stated that He is the one that will select us, once I understood this, things in my ministry begin to flourish because it was not because of me, it was all Him.

    I'm sad to say that I was part of the 'followers' that couldn't wait for the next recorded debate between a UPC minister and an Assembly of God minister, I relished to see the bickering back and forth and how each side would make fun of the other and at the end of the day both sides walked away patting each other on the back, now in retrospect was God glorified in this and I now can say the He was not, this was a mockery against the Word of God.

    So much more to say about this, but to conclude I will share a personal thought that may irk some but before you comment, first think about your response, this opinion can be reinforced by scripture, I choose to call myself a child of God (just one of many that I found in the scripture) because I couldn't find any instruction to call myself a pentecostal or apostolic, couldn't locate it in the scriptures. I remember labeling myself as such and in all reality it was used for the wrong purpose, some of what is beginning to be discussed in this blog. just my thoughts for today.

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  63. Br. Nathaniel, "I discovered by God's Word that it was not up to me to try to convince anyone but God left it to Himself to take care of the scripture states that He is the one that will reveal himself, He also stated that He is the one that will select us" AMEN!! Sometimes we think, we can HELP HIM! Imagine the absurdity of such thinking!
    "I choose to call myself a child of God" AMEN! Once more brother!

    Our Lord is getting ready to call His Bride Home! Let us draw closer to HIM, the source of our Salvation!

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  64. Bro. Maldonado, Amen brother. But confused in a way not sure if you agree or disagree.

    By the way, what are your thoughts of tithing? just to start another topic? Thanks!

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  65. Hear! Hear! Herein lies a kindered spirit. "When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; now that I have become a man, I am done with childish ways and have put them aside."

    I look back over years of when I labeled my self, "Apostolic" or "Pentacostal" and how limited my ministry was. Since then opportunities have been unlimited and at times overwhelming. The world is so large, our country is so lost and the youth in our cities and in our own homes need Christ.

    Part of the reason that so many who have heard the gospel including our own kids do not want any part of it is because they do not need another label or another serving of hypocritical phoniness. We get our daily dosage of phony virtual reality every day. Most of us parrot what we have heard without understanding and without transformation. So much so that when we speak of our "religion" we come across as a "fleamarket slimey salesman" pushing a counterfeit religion. We share and invite, "come and be free" when in reality we can not wait to "dunk" them so we can now bind them with the chains of legalism and guilt. Then we wonder why "it's so hard to win one soul"

    From an outsider looking in I can tell that gone is the simple unadulterated excitement that I read and hear in Andrew's voice when he delivers this invitation. He simply states, "Come and see." Wow, how simple is that and when it is genuine and authentic that simple invitation becomes life changing! In John 1, the phrase “come and see” occurs twice. When two curious disciples of John the Baptist asked Jesus where He was staying, the Lord said, “Come and see” (v.39). After spending the day with Him, Andrew found his brother, Simon Peter, and brought him to Jesus (vv.40-41). Later, Philip told Nathanael he had found the Messiah. To Nathanael’s skeptical reply, Philip said, “Come and see” (v.46).
    Witnessing for Christ can be a one-time event when we speak the good news about Him to others. But it may also involve walking alongside people who are seeking help and wholeness. Our genuine interest in their spiritual welfare, our prayers, and our involvement with them say without words, “Come and see. Let’s walk together, and I’ll take you to Him.”

    The broken and the unsaved are looking for more than simply receiving verbal directions. They are looking for us to come and walk along side them. Much like Christ did on the road to Emmaus. This common act of courtesy and walking alongside an inquiring person may help us expand our concept of what it means to lead others to Christ.
    The gospel has to be proclaimed, Its truth we need to share; But sometimes seekers also need
    To see how much we care. —Sper

    Kindness and compassion have led more people to Christ than proclamation alone.

    Bro. Nathaniel, I too choose to call myself a child of God. (WOW that is so liberating!)

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  66. Brother Nathaniel, in agreement of course!
    Tithing, is part of the old Temple Sacrificial System. In the New Covenant, the early church gave more than 10%, they had ALL things in common. Paul reminds the church, "I have showed you all things, how that so laboring you ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, 'It is more blessed to give than to receive.'" Acts 20:35 The only way to break away from the love of possessions, and the mentality that we are going to be here longer than HE has destined for us, is by becoming givers. As we freely receive, we should freely give!
    "Give to every man that asks of you; and of him that takes away your goods ask them not again." Luke 6:30 sums it up pretty well I believe my brother!

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  67. Brother John, we must keep in mind that those that practice the things you describe, such as:
    "Most of us parrot what we have heard without understanding and without transformation. So much so that when we speak of our "religion" we come across as a "fleamarket slimey salesman" pushing a counterfeit religion. We share and invite, "come and be free" when in reality we can not wait to "dunk" them so we can now bind them with the chains of legalism and guilt."
    Are really snared brothers and sisters in arrested development! Victims themselves, just like a blood relative that has been diagnosed with Congestive Heart Disease. How would we react toward such a relative? Would we shun him/her? Criticize him/her for not taking care of their health better? Tell others not to associate with him/her? Or should we as the living organism that we the Body of Christ are, work in unison to repair the damage and bring healing to the affected parts of the Body? Remember, "And above all things have fervent love among yourselves: for love shall cover a multitude of sins." 1 Peter 4:8
    So we just need to guard ourselves not to fall into the same trap and mirror-image the actions of those we speak of, but in reverse, without realizing we are doing the same thing!
    "Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ" Ephesians 4:13 This day is just around the corner my brothers! The peace of Yeshua our Savior God be with you!

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  68. Forgive me if I did articulate my thoughts clearly. But I would never want someone to have to swallow some the bitter experiences that we have gone through. But rather the constant theme in my thoughts have been to strip away all the doctrine, dogma and other stuff that detracts from the authentic transformational message of the gospel. For our brothers and our sisters lets us invite them with open arms and with sincere hearts to "come and see". Without judgement or pretense. After all, charity begins at home - You should take care of your family and other people who live close to you before helping people who are living further away or in another country. Least I ever forget that "while I was yet dead in my sin Christ died for me"

    Nathaniel - sorry I missed your entry - "what are your thoughts of tithing?" ;)

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  69. Amen brother John! In total agreement! Bring them in and He does the cleansing! Only He can create new hearts! Bless you my brother!

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  70. I have seen it in our own local church that when we do not focus on someones appearance like we used to in The AA.

    But instead just shower them with the love of Christ and kindness and share The Gospel. They not only respond but eventually begin to dress more decently and live a cleaner more obedient life to God's bibilical standards.

    Let us allow God to transform the lives of those who cross our path and let us only concern ourselves with sharing The Gospel and showing people The Love of Christ.

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  71. Yes Amen Counselor! Brother Nathaniel, will you share your view on tithes?

    Peace be with you all!

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  73. I personally do not think The Assembly will ever change.

    The mentality that gives these tyrants their power will never be removed, it is too engrained and set in stone.

    There are too few that are willing to pay the price and risk losing their status, position or congregation by standing up and calling for change.

    The lay people allow this to happen by their fear and conformity, they fear to question the Man of God and cower in fear and call it humility and obedience.

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  74. I am amazed of how no one questions the pastor of Whitter? That guy used to weigh like 150 pounds when he took over David Hernandez's church. Look at him now at a whopping 400 pounds. Proof that they are only look after themselves...so sad. What have they done for the community or evangelism? They spend all their time showing off their suits,ties and pretty make-up/dresses.

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  75. Apostolic cowboy,

    It's not only him they do not question my brother.

    No Pastor is questioned, they all cover for each other.

    Cronyism at it's worst.

    Cause you know what Apostolics say " How dare you question the Man of God "

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  76. Heard Bro. Baldermar is driving himself around now.

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  77. Praise God! Glad to hear this jm!

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  78. A pastor friend.. sent me an email stating that SV needed help getting back to the states.. said he had gotten robbed and needed to borrow money to get back.. any truth to this... Bro.. FOT??

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  79. What Happened to his half million bank account he bragged about?
    His million dollar home?
    His hacker wife's Mercedes?
    If it is true he is just trying to playing the victim to get the oooo I'm sorry vote!
    Snakes like Sam are always one step ahead.

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    1. Now he mentions his Audi that goes from 0-85 mph in 6 seconds to a congregation of middle class or struggling members. He got a speeding ticket and insurance hike and from pulpit found it humorous to ask brother Nat for a raise because of it. I thought woe it's like that. How funny was that.

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  80. The hacker got hacked ? LOL

    Yeah that old email scam has been going around for ages.

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  81. Everything seems to be business as usual at Ftc. I would imagine that soon we will have more full time staff as the AA continues to sift through the mess. Than Pastor Valverde will restructure the CORE moving around departments, announce changes with a huge pledging service to support the changes (again promises made but not implemented). Pastoral family taking on assignments at local church since they cannot do elsewhere for time being.
    This past Sunday Tim Valverde, opened service, collected offering, prayed for offering, played organ during worship, and than closed service. all the while we have probably 15 ordained ministers sitting not being asked to be used. So Tim gets to look busy doing all, but don't forget he's in position to only appoint himself as Celebration Pastor/Core member. And the props on stage, for what, show time, a waste of money. All focus looks like it's on attendance to Sunday service only. No ministries, no VBS, no children anything, If they were to take a poll of what the people really feel, a blinded one, I don't think they could handle it. They underestimate the intelligence of the congregation. That's why they feel to do everything in a hush manner. No disclosures and God forbid you ask, you and your family will be cast out. Again the family secrets.
    I am amazed how many live in the bubble of doing church that it seems that's all their focus. I don't know. I'm praying.

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    1. How can you stand being in that chaos. We, my wife, daughter & I at one time were members there, but when sam began going off the deep end we were out of there. How can someone continue in a church where the pastor is a crook!
      The church where attend now (non-denominational, the pastor at the time we started there fell into adultery, he tried to hide it at first, but the power of God revealed him and he was dismissed from his pastorship. Now sam being guilty of what he did and everyone but his congregation knows and believes it, should he be dismissed from his duties? Of course, but it seems the a.a. gb cannot stand-up to him in fear of having to go work for a living if you know what I mean.

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  82. I said it wrong. Its not about intelligence in the congregation its the spiritual discernment that Gods people have. That's why they, (the Pastoral Core), the ones who say yes to all pastor and his family wants, keep everything hushed. While he stopped being pastor they lost so much influence.

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  83. Has he mention the 10 Million and what happened to it or how it was used?

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  84. Actually he should be asked about almost $13 Million and with all this money, Fontana's loan should be paid for and all homes on collateral released as Payment in full. What say you?

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  85. I say members were left in the blind along with everyone else. There has been very minimal explanation to how monies were used. I am sorry, but members should not looked at as part of the scheme. It was Pastor Valverde and those in our Core who worked with him at AA who are responsible plus the GB too. The GB where well aware and it wasn't until it was made public did it appear to be dealt with. This is why they can do nothing. The GB is at fault too since after knowing what they do now, they do nothing. All in fear of themselves being unemployed if the entire AA collapses financially. Money, power, position, has become everything to them, but I think whats really hurting them is the credibility and influence they once had.

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  86. I disagree with you as far as the members are concerned.By the very fact that sv resigned should send up red flags .They should be asking for an explanation from the gb and sv.There's a rotten smell and it should be investigated.Judas needs to be removed!

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  87. Sorry but unlike many my family and I serve God and not man. If he's in the wrong that's the AA place to remove him. If they put someone else there, great. If not, we keep serving God either way. It's easy for others to say you members should do this or that. Demand answers from whom? Why do they owe me an explanation? The one they have to answer to is God. I'm in no position to place judgement on anyone. We take what is of God and what is not we discard it. To me this is spiritual maturity.

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  88. His resignation did stir red flags. He's explained what happened in his version. The GB have not made any formal announcement to any members at FTC as to what really happened. Where should demand be made?? No one is responding, he remains Pastor and what do we do, keep serving God.

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  89. Are you supporting him ,are you giving your money to him.You don't think its wrong to to prop him up after the ousting of all the brothers ,after he said they all do what he did?Yes you need to discard what is not of God.

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  90. Yes! The Judas must be removed, but the old board is still there calling the shots.
    They brought in Fortino, but he just turned into a puppet of the old board and pulled his shorts over his head. The 10 grand a month sure is good, and the gold credit card twice as nice. Wine and dine at fancy hotels calling it a board meeting. BS! What is Head quarters for?
    They brought in Joe Aguilar to save face before other Pastors, because they all know Joe is a good man. But for how long? He will find out what the board was really up too, and what will he do? Pull his shorts over his head Like Fortino?
    They treated Sammy with respect because of his position. Did Sammy show the same respect for them when he threaten to expose all.
    Respect a snake and it bites back.
    Next election will be the same. It's a game of musical chairs. They will just change position so they can stay on the board for all the wrong reasons. THE MONEY!!!!
    Like FTC SAID WE SERVE GOD, THE BOARD SERVES THEMSELVES!

    All like Judas sold out for the silver!

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  91. What a sad group of people who call themselves Christians. "Christian" - defined as Christ like. Is any of this behavior Christ like? Step back for a minute and consider who is supposed to be the accuser of the brethren? Are you sure you want that job? Did SV do wrong? Yes! But who among you is with out sin? Can you cast the first stone? I am talking about any sin, because sin is sin. Big or small all punishable by death and you? While you were yet dead in your sin He died for you. You do not want forgiveness or repentance, you want vigilante justice. Who gave you authority to judge? FTC member - follow Christ and He alone. Everyone seems to want to "should" you, you "should" do this or you should do that.

    As Christ ascended He gave one command, "Go and make Discples". Is that what we are doing here? It is the last thing He said do you think He may have thought that was pretty important to him?

    Just some thoughts from an outsider looking in .....

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  92. Christ said you white wash tombs,full of dead men's bones and everything unclean. Matt 32:27

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  93. funny that should be mentioned because the first thing that comes to mind is Matthew 7:5.

    My questions are this, " Why are we so quick to judgement? Where is kindness, love and patience?

    This is at the core one of the fundamental flaws within the Apostolic dogma. The doctrine is solid but the dogma creates problems for everyone. It seems everyone judging everyone else is in vogue.

    Where should our focus be? Perhaps we should raise the mirror a little higher as we recall that our righteousness is as filthy rags before him.

    Trying looking in from a different vantage point ,,,,,,

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  94. I don't know where you come from but around here 13 million is far from being a little speck wouldn't you say.

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    1. With all due respect jm, if you were to drop dead in the next 5 minutes, how much would those 13 million be worth to you? I agree with John Rodriguez. I see that there are two points along this spectrum, one where God's Law of "Love covering a multitude of sins." and another on the other end where, "We are gonna get this adulterous woman stoned, no matter what, because THAT IS THE LAW!"

      I certainly mean no disrespect, I hope you know that. Simply trying to provoke you to look at things from a different perspective. My salvation is worth a whole lot more that 13 million and by focusing on that figure, I may lose sight of the TRUTH my GOD wants me to discover!

      God bless!

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  95. Jesus said my house is a house of prayer, but you have made it a den of thieves.

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  96. Bro. Jm you are right it is a lot if money. But 13m vs 100.00 both amounts are a lot of money when it does not belong to you and you have taken what is not yours.  Think back at all the Sunday lessons remember Achan? 
    There are some things that never fail to happen in God’s working. Just as surely as fire burns, so sin has its consequences. Sin affects not only the one who sins, but others as well.  This is a very sad story about a man who tried to hide his sin.
    We learn about a man who did not believe God’s way was best, so he disobeyed God’s commands. The Bible says “He that covereth his sins shall not prosper.” (This means that the one who hides his sin shall not prosper.) When we sin, we need to confess our sin to God.  We need to be convinced that God’s plan is always best. We can never have a plan that is as good as His plan, and when we disobey God’s command, that is sin.
    You might ask yourself “why did Achan’s whole family die when only Achan had sinned?” God punishes sin. Sin has consequences not only for ourselves but for others. Not only did Achan’s family die, but many families of Israel suffered because of his sin—when 36 men were killed in battle. But we should not question the counsel of God because God’s way is always right. God sees in hearts things we cannot see. It was only after he was caught, convicted, and condemned that he said, “I saw it, I wanted it, I took it, and I hid it.

    Now think back to Samuel 6:6 ¶ And when they came to Nachon’s threshingfloor, Uzzah put forth his hand to the ark of God, and took hold of it; for the oxen shook it.
    7 And the anger of the Lord was kindled against Uzzah; and God bsmote him there for his error; and there he died by the ark of God.
    I have been with men of great faith and one of them said of someone, “He was trying to steady the ark.” He meant of course that the church received its correction from above and within and that anyone who noticed a problem ought not try to fix it. That’s not our job. Perhaps like poor Uzzah above they deserved to be smitten down for their attempt. What if saving the ark was the Raison d’entre for his being there, right then? Without his reaching out to steady the ark it would have gone into the mud.  I wonder if it would have?

    Bro. JM I do not know you nor do you know me. But I will say that I came out of a place like where you are at.  You have righteous indignation and you are jealous for the things of God. A few years ago a pastor friend of mine "stole" 7million. I know that he would give it all back plus 7 more if only he could find peace.  I wanted to "steady the ark" at the time, I was angry and I wanted him to feel the "strong arm of the Lord".  But faith in God prevailed and complete  belief in his word and his covenants pulled me through.  I learned that this is not my kingdom and it is not my job to steady the ark. 

    It is His kingdom. I am but a servant, he has given me a job and that is to preach and teach the gospel of Christ. That and that alone is my focus.  Like bro. Maldonado says " how much would those 13 mil mean to you?" i will add if because we are so focused on this that we fail to reach a person that needs Christ?

    Rest assured no one gets away .... remember David

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  97. The Lord"s word to Joshua ,they have stolen , they have lied,they have put them in their own possesions the things they should not have taken.Joshua was told to meet out justice.So all of Isreal took out Achan by stoning him.That's why you need to separate yourself from Achan before you are corrupted like some of his family and friends.

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  98. You need to move away from the Uzzahs who handle the sacred things in the wrong way.Lest you get struck down with him.

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  99. The good news teaches us about not Putting stumbling blocks before the people.

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  100. Bro. Maldonado - I think you are correct. "We are going to get this adulterous women" - this was nothing more than a crowd looking for a lynching. It was not about the women or the adultery. The fact is that any one of accusers could have been accused of a multidude of sins. So I see my self in that crowd and now I see my sins and I thank Him for his grace and his forgiveness.

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    1. Likewise my brother! This is the awakening we all need, to really be walking down that road that leads to self denial and submission to our MASTER! Believe me HE is closely watching how we react in the situations during our journey through this world! God bless you brother John!

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  101. Its about removing yourself from those who handle the the sacred things that belong to God deceitfully, not the money.

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  102. Gentlemen a teaching was given to all AWA pastors, at their past conference in Houston Texas, regarding the AWA Government. Does anybody have a copy? And can you post it in this blog? I heard it was very good and sets the AWA apart from any other Apostolic Hierarchical form of church government.

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  103. I will look for it and post in the meantime, the following represents an overview of AWA:
    When comparing the AWA and AA (and most other church organizations) in all reality there is no comparison, in fact, the AWA can be best described as a fellowship and not a form government or organization. Their fellowship model is only a form of support to the pastors and their local 'organizations', the AWA has no jurisdiction on the pastor so the end result or least the best result is,the pastor remains the 'forefront person' and is allowed to conduct himself in a role of a pastor without interference from a hierarchy form of government.
    Each church has their own form of teaching, beliefs, and government but it is a marvelous thing really when they all get together, in some cases they do not 'look the same' but they all are worshiping the same God in unison.
    There was a group that recently left the AWA and formed their own organization which for the most part looked liked the AA on paper. it was clear that these men desired the same form of government that they left and/or not really open to change that was beginning to happen.
    The AWA is not for everybody but it can be for somebody. Their fellowship numbers at over 250 pastors and growing everyday. Here is one more important point to share, the directors of AWA all have equal vote and voice and this next point may turn some people away but the directors board also consists of females. This 'director's model' eliminates the problem of individuals creating their own personal financial and influence kingdoms and they also recognize that the women bring valuable insight and support to the work of Christ.
    So the question you must ask yourself, Where do I fit? then go from there. The adversary wants us to continue hurting each other which takes our focus off the 'more important matters'.

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  104. The A.W.A. has a great model. I have attended the conventions and also see some wearing veils and others not, some wearing wedding bands and others not.

    Yet still worshiping together and nobody judging the other for their different convictions.

    Thank God for The A.W.A.

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  105. “In essentials unity, in non-essentials liberty, and in all things charity [love].” This quote is often attributed to St. Augustine - can't say for sure, and some would take issue with it, but it appears the AWA has taken the concept to heart. Interesting.

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  106. about the AWA. Some have taken a negative approach in the past years towards my family and I for simply being a member of FTC. We had no direct hands on towards any pastor, SB Pastor, removal, that was those in AA board and yes our own Pastor Sam Valverde. In public Bladamar and his wife have shunned us, for who knows why. So when I hear all this about them I have mixed feelings.
    After all this, we learn to keep our focus on Christ alone. I cannot let others actions affect my family nor my salvation. I just cannot. I trust that God is forgiving, but often times we reap the consequences of our actions. Only time will tell what that is for those who have wronged others, misrepresenting the work of God. But that is between them and God. We are definitely living in perilous times. No time to waste on evil doers. Keeping our eyes on Christ and marching on encouraging others to connect with Christ while Grace can still be found.

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  107. FTC Member,

    Just to clarify : Baldemar is no longer with The A.W.A. for the reason that he preferred The AA Model of Hierchical Leadership and wanted basically a smaller version of the A.A.

    The A.W.A. Model is for some too progressive and too " open minded "

    I have always said that God has no need of Organizations and Fellowships, But for those of us who enjoy the fellowship and conferences with all the bretheren The A.W.A. model to me seems like a better fit for my family and I.

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  108. Good clarification Counselor. I too joined the AWA and attended their National Conference in Houston, Texas. They presented the "Structure and Organization" of the AWA and was very impressed with their model. Nothing like the AA at all. I have a copy of it but don't know how to post it on this blog.

    And just for info purposes, Baldemar Rodrigues and Abel Torres are no longer with the AWA. and like Counselor said, both wanted the AA Model of Hierchical Leadership and a smaller version of the A.A. so they left the fellowship.

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  109. Kennedy,

    Isn't it refreshing to see people worshiping side by side with those with differing convictions ?

    I am very happy to be fellowshiping with other brethren in The A.W.A.

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  110. Kennedy - Perhaps best way is to scan then copy and paste into comment box. Anyone else with a suggestion?

    And yes, Baldemar and Torres and a handful of pastors formed their own separate organization.

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  111. Thank you for the clarification. I would like to see that information regarding their organization (AWA). Are they mainly Spanish? Are there any fellowships in the Inland Empire area?

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  112. @ King James, is there a way to attach things to the blog? Since you are the administrator, you may know and let those that want to attach a document know. Thank you!

    What is the name of the organization started by Br. Baldemar and Br, Torres?

    God bless you!

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  113. @ FTC Member,

    There are both Spanish and English congregations in The A.W.A.

    I will look into the churches in your area and get back to you.




    @ Br. Maldonado,

    Baldemar and Torres's Organization is called Afiliacion Apostolica.

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  114. The Roman Catholic Church recognizes the distinctions between dogma, doctrine, disciplines and devotions, and the Teaching Authority of the RCC delineates between them. For example all dogma is doctrine, but not all doctrine is dogma. Dogmas are teachings of faith or morals that are considered infallible and unalterable. Doctrines are binding on believers, but can be altered, developed further, or even abandoned. Disciplines, intended to keep the believer walking circumspectly, can be relaxed or altered. Devotions are personal and private practices.

    Maybe if we were to make the right distinctions between dogma, doctrine, disciplines and devotions --a sort of “hierarchy of truth”, if you will, just maybe we wouldn't have to divide and separate over a doctrinal point or issue or practice or disagreement.

    Just a thought…

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    1. Br. Meintasis, I see a danger of becoming religious whenever we try to imitate a religion. One mistake that I see now in retrospect, when considering the letters to the 7 churches in Revelation, is that the model set up early on by those that departed from the faith and which is still adhered to, is the basic problem to religiosity. The model of the Nicolaitans, where a "professional ministry" lords it over a laity, is the reason why the Laodicean church came about! The "professional ministry" developed these doctrines and disciplines which for the most part are man-made and were designed to keep control over the laity. So in my humble opinion we should be moving away from that and returning to our "first love", that of a body of believers motivated by servanthood in the image of the Master Himself. In this fellowship where His Spirit is the guiding Force that produces true discipleship, there is spiritual growth and maturity! That model is already laid out for us as a foundation in the pages of His Word, however not too many are drawn to it because it requires self-denial and sacrifice. The other model, the Nicolaitan model, produces lazy, immature people willing to pay so that they can be given a sense of accomplishment by going through the motions of a religious fellowship which as expected NEVER PRODUCES ANYTHING! Actually, I take that back, it does produce things like the Inquisition, the false sense of accomplishment when in reality nothing is accomplished, and many other negative results.

      Both the RCC and Judaism have this belief, here is the RCC's take: "As a result the Church, to whom the transmission and interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, 'does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the Holy Scriptures ALONE. Both Scripture AND TRADITION must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence.'" In Judaism this is what they believe, "According to Rabbinic Judaism, the oral Torah, oral Law, or ORAL TRADITION ... of this view was that Oral Torah was 'conveyed by word of mouth and memorized. .... the Mishnah came to be edited together into compilations known as THE TALMUD.'"

      This is wherein lies the danger, because this oral tradition is not necessarily Divinely Inspired and that is where one can leave THE WAY! The safest path is the one already traced for us by God's Holy Spirit in His WORD and us walking yoked together with HIM along that path!

      In my humble opinion. . . Peace of Christ!

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  115. Oh and by the way, Afiliación Apostolica is setting itself to fail by imitating the Apostolic Assembly Hierarchy, which in turn copies the Roman Catholic Hierarchy without the colorful robes! :)

    Let's all return to our first love! His Spirit!

    God bless you all!

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  116. The AA Problem is Structural not biblical:

    AA is comparable to Catholic system, owned & operated by a board
    AWA is comparable to Baptist system, owned & operated by Local Church Boards

    It is not a good Idea to use individual scripture verses to justify our positions for then we do as many Budget proponents – use scripture to pick up monies for our messes?

    The Catholic model does not allow for spontaneous building in a city since a BOARD has to authorize all the moving parts. So to ask “AA Pastors” to speak up against any injustice, they do so at their own peril. Their livelihood is at stake. A pastor who spends 40 years building up from scratch a “WORK” will only find that they will be disappointed with the AA model. On the other hand, the Levitical PriestHood was based on SONS of the fathers being born and trained into ministry?

    So don’t try to get the Model to fit our expected concepts. Sons will follow, nepotism is expected and almost demanded, finally, the power is with the BOARD – not pastors! To expect a different outcome is as they say – a sure sign of insanity.

    The AWA is like an association much like the AAA road service. It has to offer a package that PASTORS will want to be an “Associated” member. The process will still be the same when it comes to the BOARD that runs it – unless it is geared to supporting Pastors and the local assembly. The BOARD/FACE of conventions are still AA in concept – The Hotels & Cities that host the events, will be the winners in the economy – the event Leaders will benefit from the HIGH profile – not the Bride? We all start out with the best of intents – sometimes to the extreme of where we came from – but the model will always show the results – everytime? Lipstick on a pig does not make one want to kiss it?

    The office of “Pastor” is not in the Old Testament . It is a catholic concept added afterwards. Rather than try to argue an established position – maybe we can see the Biblical concept – eldership. 12 Apostles ruled the 1st church. 12 Tribal rulers in Israel were part of the Chain of information from God to Moses, Moses to the people. But the daily process was based on SERVICE – both at the Tabernacle and in judicial matters. This is why the LEVITES in my opinion did not have an inheritance with the rest of Israel. When they served at the Tabernacle, the people came. When they corrupted the process (Eli’s sons - Pharisees) the people suffered.

    We should not be surprised if when we put a Salaried Pastor into another Salaried Position with all expenses paid for, that they would maintain an idealistic view after their own personal economy changes? Corruption sits next to them with every paycheck – now add to that Power & Prestige? The only way to solve that is full-time Board Positions – someone here asked why we need Hotels for Board meetings – simply because they have to sleep somewhere – the offices are not equipped for stay-overs.
    So again – look at the model – if the model is wrong, and all have flaws – then change it.

    When we re-vamped the financial system 20 years ago, the issue of church loans were in the minds of all. We brought up the issue of “rogue” loans – the board assured all that the “Constitution” would take care of all these issues? Of course we ignore our own US Government system as if it didn’t exist?
    Every Pastor, where a new work or established, will now have to look at what they want to be a associated with – a long term view.

    The AA General Board is now like a Cruise ship with a broken Rudder (GB). Until it is fixed or a new rudder is put it – they will go around in circles – and again, the model stays the same, so why would one expect different results! Stick to the local city work – the rest is membership?

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    1. Excellent explanation @Plonesr!

      I go back to my previous point: Let's all return to our first love! His Spirit!

      All through the Book of Acts you see the Holy Spirit active in the believers! This is the best model, because then we are truly One Organism with only One Mind. What I see happening, and you explain it very well, we've become an Organization instead of an Organism. One look at the new AA website and you see a corporation, not the Body of Christ!

      Brother David, the gist of my previous exposition was that we have become too worldly, when we have reached as you so correctly state: "the sad and present state of affairs that when we are not in agreement we must therefore be offended, murmur and accuse, or divide and separate due to differences of opinion, practices or personal scruples."

      Here is an excellent video that accurately identifies what we are lacking! Righteousness, it demands too much of us! :(

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKYsSdZchC0

      God bless you all!

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    2. I don't believe God is bound by our culture or structure.
      After review of the O.T., He does as He will - it's our job to seek His will not His to answer or fulfill ours.

      We are born where He sees fit - or maybe where He needs us?
      Peter had a Cornelius moment,
      Paul went to Macedonia,
      Philip met an Egyptian Eunuch?

      We must never confuse the CHURCH with membership to an organization? When we do - our explanations or excuses are words lost in the winds of experience.

      When I hear a Pastor or Church Leader say "God told or spoke to me" - now there's a clue! Jesus never spoke of HIMSELF - but His father's will. A building program is sometimes just ants being busy about their business rather than His - He provides shelter to those He loves?

      Discuss models of corporate structure - but leave the scripture out of it. Every Temple that man built was destroyed - God's Tabernacle disappeared & and never was attacked? TO THIS DAY we teach that the temple in Jerusalem is part of His plan - Rev 22 says "There is no Temple, for the Lord and the Lamb are the temple" - "I will dwell in you and you in me"...

      How we dwell with each other: "In Love" not buildings or organizations "Anointed of God". Read the bible - God used Syrians & Egyptians to accomplish His plans! He is not bound by culture or our concepts?

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  117. My point isn’t to mimic Roman Catholic doctrine or promote their hierarchical forms of government, but to use the concept (mentioned in my previous post) as a model for properly, that is, by way of sound biblical support, identify, mark the distinctions, and delineate doctrines according to their weight. I was merely attempting to address the sad and present state of affairs that when we are not in agreement we must therefore be offended, murmur and accuse, or divide and separate due to differences of opinion, practices or personal scruples.

    I still believe we can learn and benefit from their concept.

    Good discussion.

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  118. @Nat R. The 1st check the Staff paid out every month was the one to Sis Mary R. At times we were asked to "HOLD" Social Assistance checks but pay board members. Now I can state that HER check would go out regardless. One of our proudest moments. I met her once, her daughter thanked us with tears at a Genl Convention, but I think our hearts collectively will always be with the Pastors & families who pioneered w/o expectation.

    Anytime someone serves, a bullseye on the backside is par for the coarse. Take away a paycheck and you will get those who serve as a personal mandate rather than entitlement.

    In general, Pastors always welcome change - it's the young up-an-comers who have not paid the price that seek the limelight and have all the answers. It was the old Pastors that thanked us privately, while the young Ministers criticized publicly?

    Criticism w/o understanding is self-glorification? There are many Pastors left in the AA that cannot be lumped into the soup of politics. So "SOME" may have failed - but the majority did not.

    I noticed that after the entry into the Promiseland - the Levites were rarely discussed - until things needed to be re-established. Kings HEADs)ruled & failed, prophets spoke, nations conquered while Priests served - but when it was all said and done, the Levites were sought after to BRING BACK the Law of Moses so that God could once again speak.

    It was in the time of Jesus that Priests added the "Chief" category. They ruled the nation. Nicodemas, Gamaliel, and others served faithfully? The Apostle Paul, while with wrong intent, thought he was doing God's work - until his direction was made straight.

    All that to say - God is still in control - just not as we think - in a Board Room? I will still pray for those in power as instructed!

    You know we lack one thing in general - Teaching. This preaching thing with 1 scripture & 40 minutes of "OUR" translation - is just plain wrong?

    Be Blessed....

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  119. Pioneer thank you for your insight and words. How true the difference between the elder pastors and the young men that are taking over. A FB friend posted on my page a message about how he appreciated a mentor of his ministry and at first was excited that he had chosen a great elder as a voice of experience, but quickly that excitement dissipated because it was a picture of a young board member.
    I stated before that much if not all of this mishap could have been avoided if these 'young men' (board members) would have surrounded themselves with counselors of experience, but what do they do? they instead push these men aside, wait and reserve their 'words' for the crowds to hear at these elders' funeral services.
    So several years ago I chose instead to join 'forces' with ministries that are forging ahead with a purpose instead of going around in a circle for 40 years, much like the Jews after leaving Egypt. There is no time to waste, there are people to reach with the Gospel and others to 'search for that have left the church.

    My thoughts for today.

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    1. "There is no time to waste, there are people to reach with the Gospel and others to 'search for that have left the church."

      Amen brother Nathaniel! The middle east is about to explode, we do not have much time left! Let us roll up our sleeves and be found laboring in the fields!

      Bless you brother!

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  120. Once again, you nailed it Plonesr!

    "All that to say - God is still in control - just not as we think - in a Board Room? I will still pray for those in power as instructed!

    You know we lack one thing in general - Teaching. This preaching thing with 1 scripture & 40 minutes of "OUR" translation - is just plain wrong?"

    Anointed Teaching is what our Master did with His first disciples and I am sure His Will is to continue up until the day we see Him Face to Face! We need to get out of His way!

    We need to get back to letting His Spirit be our guiding Force! Otherwise, we get what we now have! How do we do that?
    Prayer, prayer, prayer, prayer, communion with Him! Add to that fasting, self-denial, not only of food but all of the garbage we are allowing into our lives! We need to be Holy for He is Holy! Otherwise, established truths are thrown out the window! One simple example: Divorce and re-marriage in God's Church! No wonder we have become an adulterous generation!

    God bless you all!

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  121. I would like to commend all of the bloggers on this site.

    I am enjoying the thoughtful, respectful and intelligent discussions on this board.

    The Apostolic News blog was cluttered with the rantings of a lunatic and I am pleased to find the post in here very mature and thought provoking.

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  122. Is anybody aware of the lawsuit that is pending with the AA. My understanding is that the general board was served and a response from them is waiting. I know some of you out there have contact with people that are close, or work in the general offices. What say you?

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  123. @Counselor: At times my thoughts will wander, my intelligence questioned (even by me) but respect - well engrained by thoughtful parents.

    "Where 2 or 3 are gathered in my name, there I am" is quoted by many as a rally for worship. "In my name" is the deciding factor - not just because we have gathered does this force Him to attend.

    ALL the chapter is about forgiveness - when we forgive another of their debt to US, then we BIND ourselves with them (on earth) and GOD accepts (In heaven) the outcome as HIS WORK.

    So read this again: Matt 18:15-18
    15 "Moreover if your brother sins AGAINST you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother.
    16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that 'by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.'
    17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.
    18 "Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind (agree) on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose (forgive) on earth will be loosed in heaven. (...forgive us as we forgive others?)

    Has nothing to do with WORSHIPING together, but rather DOING His will on earth - forgiveness, thus salvation? The rest of the chapter talks about monies owed and forgiven?

    I don't debate scripture but will share when asked. Even when kids play with TOY) swords, someone will eventually get hurt? I don't pass judgement - since I need to be forgiven.

    All that to say - just because we gather together (GB) does not makes us right - PURPOSE dictates the outcome?

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  124. Have you ever thought of having the current date on top of the blog? Otherwise you have to scroll quite a ways down to get to the current comments. Just a suggestion. But I think it would make it easier for the reader. When you open the blog you have the most current comments right in front of you. God bless.

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  125. Bro A Torres complied with Matt. 18:15-16 but he was given the Matt. 18:17.

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  126. JM: are you able to explain your last comment? I'm attempting to apply that scripture when in fact he personally chose to leave. Thank You

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  127. He went to the board and told them of the voting irregulatities the end result was he was removed from his church.I don't believe he went public till after going to the board first.

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  128. JM - You are correct in your statement about leaving the AA, I thought this comment was about him leaving AWA.

    I do give him a lot of credit since he was the bravest of the three on that board, the other two 'coward' down for fear of losing their churches and positions. And one of those two loves to use the pulpit as as 'bully pulpit' telling others how wrong they are living and pointing out the mistakes of many and demands his church to live a certain way and yet he was too coward to speak up for what was right.

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  129. I don't think Matt 18 worked for any involved here. There is only one outcome that would be worthy of Christ - gaining our brother?

    The AA chose buildings over fellowship to the dismay of future growth.
    The AWA has a "We will not return clause" in their fellowship.
    The Afiliacion - split from the AWA.

    This was a clash of the Titans. EGO the destructive force here. At the root core was Power & Money, a divisive spirit, a lack of Respect & Honor for each other.

    The winners in all this - the PASTORS who have a choice of 3 organizations. Our Patriarchs left us a cake so that we would learn the recipe and add to the lot. We took it and divided by 3 and now compete against each other for the same pie?

    I see a 40 year generational wilderness - One generation has to die off so that the new can conquer? Please understand that the Generation that left Egypt - taught the NEW Generation the ways of the Lord for 38 years. They did not fail, they succeeded! They didn't themselves enter, but total failure - no. After review, I think that was God's plan all along for they entered not by the south but the Eastern side.

    The Choice/Power is back with the Pastors. The fact that the GB has not removed the last 2 (Ex-pres) in lieu of public failures, denotes a neutered stance and will stand in judgment of all they attempt to accomplish.

    Don't react to monthly info - but rather stand back and see if you can by chance see God's hand in all this. When Nebuchadnezzar invaded Jerusalem, he took some young men - one of those - DANIEL - ruled for 70 years regardless of the kings that showed up! It was Daniel's role to remind those kings of the King of Kings - until (God's plan) the 70 years was up - the land rested!

    Don't look at the Players/Individuals - look for a purpose!

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  130. Pioner - A big AMEN. How a great work can be destroyed by man's ego. The three pieces that you stated perhaps can be expanded to many more fellowships and works that are only interested in doing His purpose. your comments are very appreciated.

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  131. The piece of cake that lost 13 million is no choice at all.

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  132. The time of bondage is up .It's time to move out from under Nebuchadnezzar.

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  133. jm - What is your drive? Why is there such acrimony in your "snippets" What is it that you would like to see done or happen?

    I read the contributions of Nathaniel Ramirez, Plonesr, David Meintasis, Br. Maldonado and others and then I read yours and your entries are quite different.

    I am just wondering as I sit on the outside looking in ....

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  134. About mentioning names:
    Jude 1:8 In the very same way, on the strength of their dreams these ungodly people pollute their own bodies, REJECT authority and HEAP ABUSE on celestial (Holy) beings.
    9 But EVEN the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the DEVIL about the body of Moses, DID NOT himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, “The LORD rebuke you!”
    10 Yet these people slander whatever they DO NOT understand, and the very things they DO understand by INSTINCT (gut-reaction) as irrational (crazy) animals do — will destroy them.

    The names mentioned here are friends of mine. If they called me I would try to help. The Bishops of Colorado, Redlands, Midland, Arizona are honorable men that paid a heavy price along with their families - unjustly. To print their names along with others here is an eternal GOOGLE calamity that we add to in ignorance.

    They have been exonerated, I would hate to be in the AA GB these days. The funds will dry up, Missions no longer a priority - but again - The PASTORS can focus back on their cities w/o the Organizational programs as a pressure point. Trust me, every Pastor will be esteemed - for their vote & their friendship by all organizations.

    Somebody's brother, someone's dad, someone's Pastor will pay the ultimate price of solitude & abandonment. No longer able to function under God's Anointing until due time. The monies because they are Legal & tied up with properties, will take time to unravel. If we yank the cord, the cards may fall to the dismay of Saints. God forbid we loose them also?

    In 2008 the financial system broke - no one went to jail. But we demand that our brothers be thrown away! When the Spirit of God left SAUL, he found no solace - anywhere. The 10 or 13 millions is in properties - so badly mixed, I pray they will be able to unravel it - I guarantee, the banks will not look the other way. Yes I'm sure some found it ways to other bank accounts - not the 1st time, won't be the last. But that is not the problem.

    Double dipping is - 2 or 3 full-time salaries for 1 man is the core of the problem. All expense paid trips by churches & organizations alike for Leaders to attend General Conventions is a bonus. Stewardship is the Mandate - not Church Loans. Banks will take care of the Loans - we will have nothing to say about it. The day we voted in Pastor's Day - God took a step back. I know Pastors that made that a "Staff Day" to their honor. I know Pastors that see that day as a BONUS day. You will struggle for the next year financially - if we take credit for a job well done.

    Our concepts of Loans was simple: Borrow monies from churches who are fluid, pay them interest (not the banks) and in this way both are blessed. Loans from Bank to build a building for the Lord - find me one example in the Bible! Kings paid Solomon to build. Darius returned the stolen articles PLUS gave offerings to Ezra to restore the temple.

    Bank Loans is our FAITHLESS way of building what we want NOW! Chuck Swindoll once said "We will never build or borrow until God provides 80% of what we need". Lakewood had an 8 million a year budget when Houston gave them a lease for $350k per year (60 yrs) at the Summit - begged them to take it?

    When we have well-intentioned men working outside of their expertise (Budgets) we can only expect calamity. STEWARDSHIP - the handling of TALENTs (gifted men) is what Jesus shared. The greatest curse to a church is a Pastor in control. In the MULTITUDE of MANY, there is wisdom. Not of the same kind, but a variety! (the blind leading the blind?)

    All that to say - at our own peril we ask for judgement - For God will chastise those He loves - those He does not, May God have mercy on their soul!

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  135. JR would you like to eat hamburger every day , or would you like to have a little chile once in awhile?

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  136. Its time to move out from under Nebuchnasser.(AA)

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  137. All I want to see is the scales of measure used evenly .If you take ones church away for wrong doing then the other should suffer the same penalty.

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    1. Interesting... - Sorta like "an eye for an eye" kinda thing.
      What of all the other souls that are being hurt in the process? What of those that reject the gospel because we just need to get that "eye". Should they be dammed? Are they just collateral damage? How does this match up with the teachings of Christ?

      I see where you are coming from, but Christ came and showed us a better way. If we are going to look at the Book (Bible) then lets look at the whole book. "If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself." Saint Augustine

      Hey brother watch out for that "beam"!

      Delete
  138. JM- I do not understand your analogy. I see no correlation between the two.

    Your comments puzzle me. What I am alluding to is that the "Church" (which is you and I) needs to be about the business of restoration. Condemnation is no business of the "Church" of Christ.

    If judgment and accountability need to take place for whatever has been done by whoever then that responsibility falls on who ever is at the helm at that time. If the people in leadership fail to make the difficult decisions then they also have failed. If we really believe that God is in charge then He will do as he sees fit when he sees fit. I am quite sure that he does not need my help. Our job is not to go about "lopping" people's spiritual heads off because we are angry or disappointed.

    Think of this, great churches (You and I) catch the fallen and carry the burden, defective churches (You and I)trample the fallen.

    So again with all due respect my questions to you are very simple, "What drives you?". What would you like to see done? I am a simple man a simple answer will do.

    Still on the outside looking in ....

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  139. while in a meeting for ministers in the LA district the newly elected bishop who is now on the gb said that if pastors were not present at the ministerial meeting that they must not want to be pastors anymore.It sounded like a threat to me.Now we can see how far this attitude has progressed.Its my opinion that its time to come out from this bondage.

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  140. The scales of justice are weight in the favor of the gb and their friends.Is sv a friend of yours?Not trying to trample on him or his family only want same justice meted out to others applied in the same manner.Did the family of the others suffer ?Was it wrong what was done to them?I think its a wrong that should be made right.

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  141. Bible says not jm if a brother is greedy or a swindler do not eat or associate with him.

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  142. JM - my opinion is that this blog was created to share thoughts and discussion but not to be calling out the wrongs of people, for example what would you have said about David when his spirit was moved just by cutting off a piece of King Saul's garment? Should David have killed the king? because by your standards sounds like you would preferred that Saul be killed.
    I read your messages and somewhat disturbed at your 'angle' and approach and can't help to ask myself, "What is JM's intent?" however, I agree with much you say about the wrongs committed by some but I am assured that if they do not answer in 'this life time' then they will undoubtedly and eventually answer to the King of Kings. The scripture states that all will give an account for what they've done and there is a warning to those that covet leadership (ministerial roles) of a judgement that God will give for anyone responsible for hurting His people and believe me, I would not want to be in their shoes, through a prophet He stated that He was against false shepherds in Ezekiel 34.
    So in the meantime this blog I believe is meant to have discussions or to be a form of communication to others that have not heard 'the other side of the story' to at least offer some insight that they could review or confirm for themselves.
    The AA has gone through situations in the past but I have no doubt that what has occurred in the past does not rise to comparison to what is occurring now. The basis of your statement may be the same as mine but we must be careful not to communicate as if wielding a sword with a dull blade.
    At the end of the day, the Gospel must still be preached and we must continue to reach out to those that have left the church and by offering information on this blog will give people reason to hope that there is life on the 'other side of the hill', that there are people that are continuing in their efforts in ministry, maybe not with the Apostolic title but a people called to preach His Gospel. Apostolic will not save you only the Word of God can change and save.

    Just my words for today.


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  143. As I stated earlier just as Gods anointed, David fled from the anointed of God ,Saul.So its time to flee the the AA. My opinion.

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  144. Nathaniel - Thank you. I must say you probably stated the concept much better than I.

    JM - Not a friend or foe of S.V. As a matter of fact I am not AA or AwA or Apostolic for that matter. I truly am an outsider looking in to this Apostolic window and I am puzzled by what I see. .

    Here is a parody on flaws called "Flaws of biblical proportions" kind of drives home the point.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwUiexuPE6w

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  145. wow what I am riled up about is the money didn't belong to one person it belonged to hundreds and hundreds of saints who sacrificed their sweat and blood so someone could misuse it.It wasn,t one brother cheating another but one brother taking advantage of the whole body of Christ.

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  146. AND THEN HE SAYS THEY ALL DO IT. Again wow.

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  147. JM and others - I realize that it's frustrating to know what is going on but the results are and will continue to be, people will eventually find out the truth and they'll come to the conclusion that enough is enough which is why over 250 pastors and thousands of brethren have already exited the AA and continue to do so.
    I've noticed recently that there is an attempt to portray an impression ‘that all is well' with promoting concerts, retreats and conferences but I personally believe that at the end it is a desperate attempt that will only offer a ‘short dividend’ because the 'weightier matters' have not been dealt with.
    Even though I have not been in the AA for quite some time I am saddened that an organization appears to be on the demise due to unethical and questionable characters of people in leadership. My family has put their ‘lives sweat and tears'(as many other families) into the AA only to be troubled by seeing what’s going on today. Both my father and uncle and many leaders were not men of great wealth in fact in many cases they put their salaries back into the work of God. When my father passed away the board and district bishop promised reimbursement to my mother only to have the payments stop after a few months or the egregious decision that with the approval of the AA the sheriff was called to evict my mother from the pastoral home but after appeals were made to the leadership of the church this action was quickly stopped. I come from an era when my father's salary was sometimes less than $20. a week and we wondered how we were going to eat but God always provided. So you see my brother JM,(and others) I have every reason to be angry and lash back but what was once spoken to me years ago, these actions would not go unanswered and the price would be paid and now we see the results of reaping that which has been sown. So it's important that everyone not be ‘lumped’ together because there were great men and women that made a powerful impact that even to today has influenced many ministries.
    There are so many ministries that have been planted and will continue to be planted that are genuine and based on God's Word, these ministries will be ready for the many that continue to tire of going around in a circle and will find out that there are still 'people in the city' that are worshiping and serving God and that once again they too can make a lasting impact for God's glory by just making that decision to step out.

    Hopefully my last words for today.

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  148. There was a man all alone; he had neither son nor brother. There was no end to his toil, yet his eyes were not content with his wealth. “For whom am I toiling,” he asked, “and why am I depriving myself of enjoyment?” This too is meaningless—a miserable business!

    Two are better than one, because they have a good return for their labor: If either of them falls down, one can help the other up.
    But pity anyone who falls and has no one to help them up.
    Also, if two lie down together, they will keep warm.
    But how can one keep warm alone?

    Though one may be overpowered,
    two can defend themselves.
    A cord of three (3) strands IS NOT EASILY BROKEN.
    Ecclesiastes 4:8-12

    It's all either a waste of time, or by separation & re-binding, the Bride is better served? I predict a harvest when Pastors return to till their cities when before they were politically circling & content?

    Vultures serve a purpose also, a signal to scavengers to eat & to clean up the road-kill. It's all a matter of perspective.

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  149. Pioneer, I have read and re-read your post and in due time will offer a response with the purpose of determining what the three paragraphs have to do with all that has transpired, but once I get my thoughts around it then I will respond.

    To your forth point, I stand in 100% agreement with you which is already happening in many cities but as you so eloquently pointed out in a previous statement, that the concern is not with the doctrine but with the structure, so on that point, with the pastors in a structure that is obviously in peril and since the structure requires 100% 'fall in line or else' then it is highly questionable that the harvest is possible under those type of constraints which is why many have chosen to leave and focus entirely on ministry minus the 'weight of this structure'. I too believe that the church will continue regardless of what is occurring around us.

    to your final point, I will also take some time to contemplate with earnest attempt to understand what vultures scavenging to eat road kill is referring to.

    Just my after thoughts about your post.

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  150. Thank you for providing a common place for expression of a matter very close to our hearts. It is painful and wish it never happened.

    The last AA district convention I attended as an AA ministerial card holder, was with an unfavorable experience. My family and I had started a mission in a rural area for a few years. I was working full time in secular wok to support ourselves and the work of course, while also my wife was doing most of the home schooling. Bro. Danny Sanchez, treasurer at the time, was allocated a room at the convention hall where all pastors not sending tithes to headquarters were to report. To be allowed to vote the following day in the district election we had to pay the previous months church tithes right there and then. I don't remember who the presiding president was at that time. But a year or so later, a suite at the downtown Marriott was rented by the GB where the district bishop called after work for delinquent tithe paying pastors to report. The two well suited gentlemen, like Bro. Sanchez were very to the point trying to be business like with something that was NOT a business. Money was obviously their main mission.

    Looking back I can now see the prioritize and organized focus on the greed for money starting to raise its ugly head. I as dumbfounded with these experiences because when my father was pastoring, mom made tamales and we sold them in the barrio to make ends meet. Now the budding "franchise" mission we were working on wasn't producing any revenue for the general offices quick enough! It was their formal assertiveness of collecting monies without regard for nothing else that was troubling to me.

    Other negative events soon after led to our disassociating ourselves from the structural system of AA long before it outwardly started heading south in its internal dysfunctional state to the present. It grieves my spirit because we have long time friends and wonderful Pastor friends on both sides of this cleansing debacle. As some of you have already stated in so many words, man appointed on the self serving wrong mission has resulted in a massive derailment of the leadership--but His Church will go onward! It is distressful to remember not so long ago we heard of end time persecution by government taking our Bibles, stifling public worship, padlocking church doors, etc. Fast forward to today AA's misused authority to see that premature fulfillment. We are reminded of Him who when asked of His wounds, answered: "Those with which I was wounded in THE HOUSE OF MY FRIENDS". The lack of Godly leadership causing the shellacking of the AA structure seems to reflect the deficiency of moral and competent leadership of our country. But God is still in control!

    We need not look beyond the simple, unlearned, Jesus chosen and taught disciples who were made capable of governing all aspects of His blood bought personal property--HIS CHURCH. We could learn a lesson of wisdom and safety from the early disciples of not entangling themselves in the business and finances. This goes for selective voted personnel at the top to the local Pastor...(cont.)

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    1. Bro. Garcia
      Never thought the DataBase would be used viciously. I always thought tithes were FREELY Given? They should be called a membership fee or Tax ala IRS.

      I will say, it was easy to predict 25 years ago. Power does corrupt! Add real-estate titles/ownership and you have an empire?

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  151. God Bless all the Garcia's in the body of Christ.

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  152. @Bro Nat... Not necessary - just waxing poetic.
    We all need each other was the point.
    If you post a rumor, name, or critique, the vultures will show up to pick at the pieces (make a mess). A failed attempt at sarcasm?

    BTW - Harvest is God's forte'. He knows the times & seasons (ala Joseph) so He places those He needs, where needed. "The Lord added to the Church Daily".

    We gather 10k strong at convention center and BLESS the Marriot, Hilton, restaurants - never leaving a new church in place.
    A Natl Missions dept is redundant when you have Districts?
    3 Natl Depts (Men,Women,Youth) require a local CHURCH TAX to exist?

    So again, the Structure or Model needs retweaking?


    Just some thoughts?

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  153. ...GOD'S CHURCH PROSPERS WHEN SPIRITUAL LEADERS SEPARATE THEMSELVES FROM CHURCH FINANCES. "When the number of the disciples was multiplied there arose a murmuring." Acts 6:1. "The Word of God", or thought and utterance in the Church was the special function of the apostles. The "serving of the tables," was another function, important and necessary. But even for the humbler duties in the Church some sterling graces are needed. But for the two to be mixed in the same persons would have been a lack of harmony. This obviously inclu8des the leader's or pastor's families handling the finances of those that support them and other Church needs. Enough has been said of nepotism and of some untested father-appointed-son inherited pastoral positions.

    The necessary infirmities of Church life can be made opportunities of great blessings. Nothing was neglected, neither wants or murmurs, but everything was wisely considered and prayed over. They called out the gifts of the people and used them, hence the selection of the seven. The money matters can never be too carefully spiritually controlled in the Church. Keep the spiritual and the secular as far as possible in their rightful places. We progressively have seen secular, worldly, professional concepts introduced into Church government by well meaning saints more tuned and trained in secular ideas which supplant simple Godly principles. I wonder if trying to birth more "AAAA...s" is really God's solution to what He really wants now for His Church.

    THE CHURCH PROSPERS WHEN SPIRITUAL LEADERS FOCUS ON THE SPIRITUAL. "It is not reasonable that we should leave the Word of God and serve tables." 6:2. The central function in the Church is the teacher. It demands a whole man and whole energies. Prayer and the ministry of the Word are the life of the preacher. We should not let the business/financial demands oppress the minds which should be free to study the Word and seek the mind of God for His direction of His Church. Their focus alone was on the development of the Church's Godly knowledge, direction and devotion as supreme.

    The apostles held an exceptional position, but in all important respects they were example of singleness of mind and wisdom. There was a distinction between faithfulness in office and officialism--PUESTOS! The hope of the Church is in the spirituality of its ministers. If they lower the design of their office and regard themselves as mere popular leaders, they let in a flood of evil both in the pulpit and the Church. The apostles put their own office as teachers and preachers before that of the deacons.

    THE CHURCH R E A L L Y PROSPERS WHEN SPIRITUAL LEADERS FOCUS ON THE SPIRITUAL. When the apostles were relieved of other secular duties, and "gave themselves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the Word" (vs4), the "Word of God increased " (vs7); then came ABOUNDING spiritual success--"the number of disciples multiplied GREATLY"; then followed SUPRISING spiritual success--"GREAT company of priests were obedient to the faith."

    The Church itself being a zealous, live and faithful ministry will always experience very blessed results. Some exploits will be cause to rejoice. Other calamities will surprise the hearts and minds of believers. It was so in the NT. Many were added to the Church in leadership roles and as members, who seemed totally removed from God's purpose for His Church by their prejudices, temporal interests, power and financial gain, the heinousness of their wrong doing, or in their unchecked pattern in sin.

    I pray that in God's favor we all find His mercy. God's Church will always move forward, as it is being purged to a state of perfected readiness.

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  156. Nester Garcia - Thank you for painfully penned letter detailing your experience. One word - UNBELIEVABLE!!!!

    What sad state of affairs and a sorry excuse for an organization that was founded with entirely different motives and values. But the bible tells us what our (Human) tendencies are and history has given us examples of churches that have lost their way.

    In early 16th-century Europe, some theologians and scholars were beginning to question the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church. Augustine (340–430) had emphasized the primacy of the Bible rather than Church officials as the ultimate religious authority. In 1517 Luther penned a document attacking the Catholic Church's corrupt practice of selling "indulgences" to absolve sin.

    So here is where I get lost and I just do not seem to understand, somebody help me. Why is that it seems that the "stamp of approval" or affiliation with the AA is so important. Why is that after so much spiritual abuse, psychological and intellectual insults that people continue to return or continue to seek approval. It would appear that this organization has been reduced to "neo-phariseeism" and the toxic religion of greed.

    As such why would you want to continue down the same road and why would you want to lead others down the same road? What of your families? Your wife, your kids and your grandkids? It just does not make sense to me. I have always said that I am on the outside looking in and that is my vantage point. I left the AA 25 years ago because of things similar to this and I vowed that I would not expose my bride or my kids to this type of spiritual abuse. Just because I left the AA does not mean that I left the Church on the contrary I feel more alive today than ever.

    The AA was great once but the AA of old would not recognize the AA of today. So why do you stay? Why is it so hard to leave? Just some questions because I sincerely do not understand.

    From the outside looking in .......

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  157. John Rodriguez - I have asked myself the same question and can only apply the following conclusion:

    1. The 'discipleship' teachings are basically "you do as I say and not as I do" or "do as I say" or "follow me no matter what" and the big one is "if you ever think differently than what I teach or believe you are violating the scripture by going against the man of God": so in a way it is a form, (and please I ask any reader to forgive me in advance, this is not meant to offend you)it is a form of brain-wash. The results being that the people do not think there is 'life on the other side' because that is what they have been taught all their lives.

    2. It is a tradition: "because my father or mother" or "because my "father's father or mother's mother was so and so", or "because our family did such and such", because I'm related to "you know who". (This list can be endless)

    3. Being Optimistic - "Well it will get better one day" and sadly history records many terrible incidents that even with an advance notice of 'harm' coming or even that 'harm' that had already arrived in their country or city, even after all the given opportunities they still thought things would get better and preferred to stay and the results being many were killed and/or families separated forever. Or even in marriages "I know he didn't mean to beat me up, he'll change" and then the cycle continues with their children. In these listed examples the people had every opportunity to run towards a better life and future but they chose instead to remain.

    In my final example, it can also be a form of complacency, "this is where I was born so this is where I will remain" "I've worked too hard to walk away from all this", (these people also demonstrate a character that is against God's Word), they are well aware of the wrongs committed all around them but they choose instead to turn a blind eye and ignore it. Much like the man in the scripture that was ignored by a priest and religious person that was on the side of the road and not helped until a good Samaritan came by and took him to safety.

    Sadly, many will not walk away from this futilely thinking that okay we'll pray or God is with us etc., etc. and no amount of information from any blog, any written documents or any proof will convince them otherwise.

    To conclude, my brother, it can be said that the 'hunger for something more' has been the cry and prayer of many people and in your case it was 25 years ago, in my case several years ago and the same is being duplicated every day with people finally willing and brave enough to step out by faith knowing that God will provide, because every day that passes is a day of lost to make a lasting impact in the lives of so many people that need the Gospel or to find their way back to God.

    Just my thoughts for today..

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  158. ahh My dear brothers reacting to the white smoke of a fire.

    The church (Bride) is not bound by denominations, culture or countries. We can critique a Position, Political Office, Departmental Structure - BUT don't critique a Person (Bride) for then the GROOM is not happy. We bring judgement upon ourselves.

    Men will always fail. We put structure in place - they will find way around them. Have you heard of the IRS scandals? This is with the brightest & best in place?

    In the AA the TITLE of a church is owned by the Organization so that in order to expand, permission is needed much like if you seek a loan to add to your house - the Bank will have to sign off?

    Bishop, Pastors = Servants (Stewards/Managers)
    The OT Priests at the tabernacle (where God Dwelt) had no authority - they served. The NT "Chief Priests" Lorded over Israel.

    Stewardship is the problem here. A small, medium or large church all work differently - a Pastor/Manager who uses his family as Supervisors - do so at their peril. The more TALENTs you put in place, the better & faster growth.

    Always remember that the Levites were BORN into service - so don't condemn a SON following a father in ministry. Singers, musicians & gate-greeters all came from levitical tribes - those REDEEMED? So any one who have been SAVED qualify - the choice of the Local board. BUT - when a Pastor rules w/o ELDERship (wisdom) - problems occur!

    NOT THE WHOLE AA is failing! The eldership of the AA has failed to act. Consider this: The pastors who left before the 2008 meltdown, saved themselves from mortgages that become lemons after 2009. The AA took over over-priced propertys. Then with this last fiasco, trust is broken - I don't think Pastors will feel pressured to pay tithes into a system that is broken? So they shot themselves in both legs therefore - the slow crawl to come.

    The AWA has a better system for expansion, but as soon as financial needs are required - they will have to implement some of the same concepts? If a Pastor needs help in financing, there will be obligations? UPC, Assemblies & Baptist organisms are set-up this way - they also have problems? The Catholic, Anglican & Century old systems are AA in concept - they are afterall the biggest & longest enduring systems?

    So the structural Models of any organization require tweeking? BUT don't condemn all PASTORS to failure because a board or member has failed?

    SET-MEN Principle of Jethro to Moses:
    To compare a mom & pop store with WalMart is ignorance. However, the difference is the Numbers of Managers (Talents) each produces?
    Some Pastors start other churches by Mentoring. Some by getting rid of the competition (birth of the AWA & Afil?).

    STEWARDSHIP: 1 Cor 9:13
    The Workers of the Temple: salaried workers in a church
    The Workers of the Altar: Ministers & Pastors will be paid by the work at the altar. More souls = more revenue. More SINS covered, more inheritance?
    The Workers of the GOSPEL: those that thru stewardship can conquer a city, state, country? The use of Talents is mandatory! The GOOD STEWARD that has "7 men of good report" already knows where to place them and also know that the WORD is the mandate. Some still have to FIND & then MENTOR those 7?

    We at times are like those that watch a Gay Parade in SFO on a friday and feel the need to Preach against Gays on Sunday in Ohio?

    Even a crazy king figured out God was in control?
    Dan 4:34 At the end of that time, I, Nebuchadnezzar, raised my eyes toward heaven, and my sanity was restored. Then I praised the Most High; I honored and glorified him who lives forever.
    His dominion is an eternal dominion;
    His kingdom endures from generation to generation.
    35 All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing.
    He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven
    and the peoples of the earth.
    No one can hold back his hand or say to him: “What have you done?”

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  159. @JR & Bro Garcia,
    I'm guessing you are moving to China after all the issues here in the U.S.? lol - just kidding!

    Some Pastors have deeper roots than most of us in the AA?

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  162. Dear Readers,

    So that there is no misunderstanding and to address a comment on this site; "but as soon as financial needs are required - they will have to implement some of the same concepts? If a Pastor needs help in financing". The answer to this question is a resounding no, as stated numerous times on this blog the AWA is a fellowship and all financial matters are at the level of the local church body. Another fact, 'are you ready for this one?' the directors of the fellowship do not receive salaries for they are totally supported by their local church.

    I also stated in a previous blog that one must not lump everyone together because there are many great men and women in the AA however the sad fact is this, the potential of a failing incorporation puts all the efforts of both questionable and great people at risk as one group since there is a potential of the banks taking over due to non-payment of mortgages.

    Can the assembly afford $85k a month to pay for the Fontana church? (and that is just one property). The AA Incorporation may be forced to sell properties to cover these and other egregious and creative bookkeeping practices and mismanagement of the finances given by the hard work, sweat and tears of the hermanos. Will Solana Beach lose their property? will San Jose church lose their property?

    Some try to apply spiritual principals and that in my opinion is an attempt to misrepresent or distract the focus off of highly questionable practices of the church leaders and yet no one is held accountable and even if they do, will it be on time? Could you sell enough tamales or plan enough car washes or fund-raisers to pay when the 'collector comes to collect'? this is obviously a sad state of affairs that has very little 'wiggle room' for resolution, it should have never come this far but it is what it is.

    My last thoughts for today

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